ChangED
ChangED is an educator based podcast for Pennsylvania teachers to learn more about the PA STEELS Standards and science in general. It is hosted by Andrew Kuhn and Patrice Semicek.
ChangED
From Labels To Belonging
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What if designing for everyone from the start could raise the floor without lowering the bar? We sit down with two veteran colleagues who live and breathe Universal Design for Learning and unpack how this framework transforms planning, teaching, and professional learning. Rather than chasing the perfect strategy, they show how UDL begins with a mindset: clarify the goal, anticipate barriers, and build options so students choose their best way into rigorous work.
The conversation moves beyond classrooms to the systems that support them. We talk about modeling UDL in adult learning—multiple pathways, clear goals, options for novices and experts—and why cross-role teams (general ed, special ed, EL, psych) surface better solutions by seeing different barriers. If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by “do it all” initiatives, this episode offers relief and direction: start with one barrier, add one option, ask if it worked, iterate. That’s how we create belonging, reduce over-labeling, and help more students self-direct toward meaningful outcomes.
If this resonates, follow the show, share it with a colleague who cares about access and rigor, and leave a review with your own “plus-one” you’ll try next. Your idea might spark someone else’s breakthrough.
Want to send us a show idea or just say hi? Email us at: thechangedpodcast@gmail.com!
Surprise Guests And Setup
SPEAKER_00Welcome back to Change Ed. Changed. Change Ed. Your favorite podcast to listen to when you got nothing else to do. My name is Andrew Kuhn. I am such a butt. Your favorite voice when you got nothing else to do to listen to. I'm an education consultant from Montgomery County Intermediate Unit. And here with me is Patrice Simjack. That was a huge buildup.
SPEAKER_03Well, no, I was gonna try to be all excited, and we all know I can't do that. I'm also out of the Montgomery County Intermediate Unit as an educational consultant. And the best one out of all of us.
SPEAKER_02Tony Marabito, Carbon Lehigh Intermediate Unit, SDF, whatever you want to call me today.
SPEAKER_03Whatever we are today. We have surprise guests. We're continuing our surprise guest series.
SPEAKER_00We are, and these guests are unknown to any of us except for Patrice. Right. We've only met this these not one, but two guests. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Because I know how to bring it.
SPEAKER_00Not gonna disappoint you once, we'll disappoint you twice. Patrice.
SPEAKER_03Rude. My guests have not been disappointing ever. You, on the other hand, we had an empty slot today, but whatever. I am happy to introduce my colleagues, our colleagues, Aaron Barry and Jesse Gluckman. They have worked with us yeah, a long time. How long have you been here? Quite a few years. Seven years? Seven years. Aaron and I used to do math stuff together back when math was important before science took over. And gifted. And gifted. Yeah. And Jesse's been here for 11 years. For 11 years. And we have worked together on a few. We came up with Dream It Design It Together. We came up with some really cool science PDE together back in the day.
SPEAKER_01You want to talk about how we work best.
SPEAKER_03Yes, please go right ahead. How do we work with it?
SPEAKER_01So Patrice and I work best by just fighting.
SPEAKER_03Screaming.
SPEAKER_01Fighting with each other. And then in that comes usually really beautiful. Really great designs. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Jesse's an ideas person, and I'm like, you can't do it. Similar to like what I do with you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I haven't met a single person who doesn't describe working with Patricia that way. So yeah, there's a club. Actually, we have stickers.
SPEAKER_04You fight with a lot of people. Yeah. Patrice and I did not fight. We didn't fight. We were on the same wavelength. All the time. Maybe because we're both women.
SPEAKER_00Well, I can say it's really nice to meet both of you. Thank you for coming on the show. Of course. And why did you invite our special guests? What knowledge are they going to have?
What UDL Really Is
SPEAKER_03One, I thought it would be a really fun episode because they are just some really fun and funny people. But also they have a really great mindset and are super clear in articulating their thoughts around universal design for learning. They're a part of a small team that at RU has been really focusing on universal design for learning and it's really taken off in the last few years at RAU. I think mostly because of the collaboration between the four of them. And so I invited them today so we can talk a little bit about what is UDL. And it's more than just differentiation. It's different than differentiation. So how can we embrace some of those principles in science?
SPEAKER_00You know, for our listeners, I don't know that, you know, UDL might be a term that they have heard, but you know, maybe to kind of set the stage, what what are we referring to when we say UDL? I love how you're both pointing at each other, like arguing without using words. Who's going to go?
SPEAKER_04I'm going to let Jesse take it because he is very good with articulating.
SPEAKER_01So I think the important thing to understand about universal design for learning is it's not a thing. In education, we're so focused on the product or what it means. It's a framework, which we are also hearing in education a lot through MTSS and other initiatives, multi-tier systems of support for people that hated acronyms. But it is really just a way of thinking. It's an inclusive mindset, comes from the world of design and architecture. And it really is just this idea that places and spaces are better when we think about making things accessible from the beginning instead of trying to retrofit and make things accessible thereafter. So it's it's just a design thinking framework that helps us solve problems in classrooms and schools and professional learning. And it goes on and on and on, personalized. It's just a way of thinking that is really easy to get behind.
SPEAKER_00Jesse, you changed my mindset and the paradigm with which I saw education because you explained that a lot of the things that we use in education are almost like tools that we can have in our backpack and we grab them and we'll pull them out and we'll use them when we need them and then we put them back. Because we might need them another day, we're gonna keep them. But really, that UDL is almost like changing the way that you see the world. So it's almost like putting on glasses that you just don't take off for putting contacts in. And now you can see the world differently, it's more clearly. And once you start to UDL, it's hard to un-UDL, it's hard to not see the world that way.
SPEAKER_01What is powerful about Universal Design for Learning is it wakes you up because too often in life we're using supports and we're using strategies and we take them for granted. Yeah. So then when we become classroom teachers, we find in the field that sometimes people don't want to give those strategies unless someone has a label.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
Access Without Losing Rigor
SPEAKER_01But however, in our own personal life, we use them all the time and we don't consider it cheating and we don't consider it to be a bad thing. It's just the way of being. So that shift that you experienced when you're sort of awakened into the UDL mindset is it's you see the world, you see the supports, you see that someone put that there on purpose. They want you to use it, and we need like people use it or they don't. It becomes a choice. Right.
SPEAKER_04And I think that's like just to kind of piggyback off that, when we talk about education and we talk about this idea of supports that we are universally designing for all students to have access. A lot of times the pushback we get is it reduces the rigor, it changes the level of you know, instruction or whatnot. But the those are two different things. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03That the idea allow for access while still keeping the rigor high.
SPEAKER_04Right. But the idea being that, like if you're looking at it through this lens of universal design, it's we want to provide and teach all kids how to understand what it is they need as learners in order to be successful. And so that's one thing universal design does for us is it starts to build student learner agency with kids. Yeah. And it teaches them what it is they need to know about how they learn, how they learn best, what strategies and tools they need to be successful, and whether or not they worked.
SPEAKER_00One of the things that we've been spending a lot of time on our podcast talking about, and it's just a recurring theme, is this idea of convergence learning and really this transdisciplinary focus that it's not just one thing. So while I I Aaron, I want to ask you like, well, what does that look like in math? And I do want to know that. I'm seeing already that this is not limited to a subject. It's not limited to a content area. This is more a best practices and approach to education.
SPEAKER_04So I think if we think about it universally, like not even just specific to math, one of the things that we always hone in on is a UDL mantra, goals, barriers, options. So regardless of what content you're in, you know, making sure you're tight on the goal for the learning, being proactive in terms of thinking about what barriers might exist with the learners that are in the space, and then considering options to remove those barriers prior to instruction. So you might lean into the universal design framework that, you know, Jesse alluded to it being this framework that does provide some options within different guidelines. When I think specifically about math or science, I think a lot about language because both are very language heavy. And there is a guideline that focuses on language, vocabulary within whatever content it might be. So, how are we supporting kids in their language, not just in their math learning? And, you know, we know a lot the language is a huge piece. Kids might not understand definitions of words that we sometimes think that they do. So how are we maybe proactively pre-teaching some vocabulary prior to instruction? That might be an option to remove that barrier. But always going back to this idea of the UDL mantra.
Goals, Barriers, Options
SPEAKER_01And I'm gonna jump in because I know like people always get frustrated. Aaron did a beautiful job of trying to answer that question without answering that question because UDL practice sort of suggests that we should not answer that question because we don't know about the students in the space, about the goal of the lesson.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01So if you go to try to Google UDL practices, you won't find them. Or if you do, you should be weary because it's not about like a a certain thing. You sort of want to land in research-based practices, but the reality is it's about centering on the teacher and the teacher's uh ability to meet the needs of students. So it holds the teacher at center, not a product, not a strategy. It's really about giving teachers the autonomy to think about what Aaron just sort of said. What is the goal? What am I trying to do? What potential barriers have I seen in the past, or do I think that these students are going to bring to the table? And then what as a teacher am I going to lean into to try to remove those barriers? And I said barriers because there's many. Yeah. But UDL also tells us that we shouldn't try to remove too much at one time because it's not manageable for a teacher to do that. Um, we have a lot on our plate besides just teaching academic lessons. So it's an iterative process, which means that it's really like we're trying to build a curriculum that's responsive to student needs over time. So we're taking, we call it the plus one. What's one thing in this lesson I can do that I didn't do before that's going to make a difference for the students that I'm serving? And that is where teachers like that's why they like it. Yeah. It puts them attainable. And it's empowering teachers and educators to do the work of teaching, which is why they got into the field instead of reading like a script from a book. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Which I don't want to downplay, but well, there is a time and place for those kinds of things. And I think we misunderstood or misconstrued the fidelity word, right? You can still teach with fidelity to your program. It just may not be every single word that's written in the text, right? Like you're still doing the work, you're still doing the program, the curriculum or whatever you want to call it, but you are looking at it from a different lens to make sure that every student in your classroom has access, right?
SPEAKER_01The thing I always push with fidelity is fidelity to who.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01Like if we understand teaching and learning. If I'm sorry, we've been teaching students for a very long time. If we could figure this out, we would have. Yeah. What we did find out, we already know, yeah, is that everyone's really unique. Yeah. There isn't one thing that's going to solve the problem for everyone.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01However, we keep on being told that if we just do it right.
SPEAKER_03Yep. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01If we just did it with fidelity, this program would have met the needs of all your students.
SPEAKER_03Yes. That's, I think, right.
SPEAKER_04They're not all, you know, type A. Right. And that's like, I think, you know, what teachers see cycle through over the years of teaching. It's like, oh, we're going to focus on this this year, this initiative, or next year it's going to be a different initiative. And the nice thing about Universal Design for Learning is universal design for learning lives within everything. Yeah. It's just about how we approach it. So within MTSS, we talk about that structure. We're talking about good tier one instruction, universal design for learning. We're designing for the learning and the accessibility for all kids in tier one instruction. So it is across the board, applicable, and connecting to everything. And to Jesse's point, it is very contextual. That is, you know, the biggest thing when we go out and we work with teachers. We never do the same thing with any given teacher in any given space because it always is dependent upon the kids that are sitting in front of them and the space that they're in.
SPEAKER_02When you're going out to work with teachers, what do you see as the number one barrier when you're in the field? And then what advice are you giving them to overcome that barrier?
SPEAKER_04Good question. I'll let Jesse take that.
SPEAKER_01Both take it.
SPEAKER_04Okay, get it.
SPEAKER_01I'm going to say overwhelm. I feel like teachers don't know where to begin. They they want to be responsive to the students that they have, but they just don't know. They've tried a lot. Nothing seems to be working. They've asked for support. They don't feel like they're getting meaningful support. Yeah. So the first thing that we we try to do is team, we're here with you to try to figure this out. We'll stay with you until we do. And then no, until we can't. But it really is about like teaming with people to really try to solve real problems in a meaningful way. And I think that at its core, that's what UDL is about, is it's a problem-solving process. So it's not going to maybe work the first time we try it, but it's coming back to the table and trying to figure out how to do that work.
SPEAKER_04I think what I would say is the biggest lift that we undertake on is mindset. You know, Universal Design for Learning is all about mindset. And if people show up in a space and don't have the mindset andor unwilling to shift mindset, that's a big lift. And it's all that's the foundation of all the work is the mindset, really. Believing that all kids are capable, all kids can learn, all kids should have access, all kids belong.
SPEAKER_01And I'm going to jump in again too, because both of the things we said are seemed like negative. But one of the things that came out with the new guidelines that were just released about a year ago is the importance of joy and nurturing joy. Yeah. And I would say that we try to bring some levity to the work. Yeah. Because the work actually is a lot of fun. Yeah. And working with students is a gift. Yep. But we forget that because of other demands. So how do we just have a little fun in the work that we do and try to be intentional?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Are you seeing growth or change or an impact at the higher ed level with pre-service teachers? Is this now becoming mainstream and something that they're talking about? Or is this something that we're doing work here at this level with in-service teachers, but are we behind in shifting the mindset of pre-service teachers?
SPEAKER_04I mean, my answer to that would be we don't do enough work with pre-service teachers around universal design or anything. There are definitely our pockets of places I think we've seen in our work where higher ed is working with pre-service teachers to take this on, depending on the school or the institution. It's definitely, I think, something that needs to become more of a priority and a shift so that as teachers enter the field, they're coming to it with that mindset, right? As opposed to having to shift that mindset once they're already there.
SPEAKER_01So one of the things that we try to do intentionally is when we're designing professional learning, how do we create support not just with like IU consultants? How do we create support with districts? How do we create support that's school-based?
SPEAKER_03So the system's changed.
SPEAKER_01The system has to be changed, right? So and you can't do that work without the work of others. So even though it's so contextual, right? So what it looks like in one space isn't how it's going to be in another, it's important to have people and colleagues that you can join together with to do this work.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Which is how our team was decided, like designed in the beginning. There was myself who just has like an inclusive background. I taught math, science, reading, have taught it all. But it's also important to have like if I had a lens that I look through. Then Lauren has a lens that she looks through and she did the literacy and and has that inclusive background too. Just our the way we think is different. So that was a nice team, and that's how we started. Then Aaron and and came on and massive.
SPEAKER_03I didn't think anyone, she didn't think anyone deserved anything before. And now her eyes have been open 100%.
Fidelity, MTSS, And Tier One
SPEAKER_01And then we had Sarah who brought in the ELD lens. And so the team was built intentionally with different expertise so that we could grow each other, so that we could be a better support to people that come to us. But that doesn't happen because we're so siloed. Yeah. So when we ask people to come to learn about UDL, we're asking for regular ed, we're asking for special ed. We're asking for specialists, we're asking for school psychs. We're asking whoever wants to learn should have the opportunity to come learn because they bring value to the team. And then they bring value to our space.
SPEAKER_03And potential perspectives that would then open your eyes to barriers. Like I'm gonna have a different barrier than you would have. So having multiple voices at the table allows for that. Yeah, I love that.
SPEAKER_00Now there's some listener somewhere who is, you know, they're listening to their favorite podcast. It's this one in case you were and they're thinking, okay, I, you know, this is the first time I'm hearing about UDL. So my question for both of you is what's something that you now know or understand that you just didn't when you started? There's got to be something about this that you're like, it it sounds like it's continuing to grow. You said that there are new guidelines that came out. We're looking at joy, we're considering these things. So for that listener who might be new to UDL, what's that nugget of wisdom that you could throw out there that they might not understand right now? They don't get it, but you're it's almost like you're putting this nugget out here. Like there's farther to go with UDL, there's more to understand.
SPEAKER_04I think one of the biggest things for me is the understanding that, you know, Jesse alluded to this idea of variability. Every kid shows up differently, and we talk about supports we can put into place to meet the needs of all those learners. But it doesn't just stop there. There's also another component, which is that reflective self-sort of evaluative. Did the support work? How do I know? And this all-building learner agency. So, how do we get kids to really become the owners of their learning journey, as opposed to teachers feeling like they're the ones who have to push kids through the system? Where are we teaching kids, you know, the value of knowing what's best for them as learners, how they can self-reflect on that, how they can, you know, sort of grow.
SPEAKER_03And that's not an innate skill either. That's something we have to model and teach. And like that's not something that's going to happen in a year. Exactly.
SPEAKER_04Even for our high school kids, you know, like we don't do a lot of that like conversation around like, I saw you used that graphic organizer. Did it work? Why'd you use it? I feel like next time maybe you might not need it. Could you try it without it and see how it works? Like just those real quick conversations that I think become self-reflective and and show our learners that they can be self-reflective as well.
SPEAKER_01And I think I have two stories. The first one was the first time I learned about this, I'm like, oh, this is just special ed. I got this. I knew this from undergrad.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Wrong.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Studying it like seven years later, and I still don't know what I need to know about UDL, which is also which takes me to my second point, which is it's really important for us to remember that we need to show up with that learner agency. I I'm sort of shocked sometimes when I'm talking to a room of educators.
SPEAKER_03And they don't know how they learn best.
SPEAKER_01Or they don't want to be learners. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I it's we have to model in our profession what it means to be a learner.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And we have to care about learning. And I think UDL reaffirmed the importance of that. And how do I think about that when I design even for adults? So people that maybe aren't in a classroom and they're listening to this because they're in education. We need to think about teachers the same way we think about students. How are we giving them what they need?
Biggest Barriers: Overwhelm And Mindset
SPEAKER_03In the line of work that we're we're currently doing or that we're all doing, like it's one of those things that sometimes we get stuck in our well, I have To tell them this, or I have to show them this, or I have to do this, and I have to do that. And I think that's not to like tie it to steels like we always do, but like that's one of the benefits of this shift in standards is it's kind of giving them a little bit more free reign to kind of figure out something, to ask the questions, to do something and figure out like this didn't work for that, this didn't work for that. Like I think it's one of those interesting shifts that I feel like we're trying to make in education. And in some areas, we've talked about it in math all the time too. Like you can't just do rote stuff. You've got to have access to all kinds of stuff.
SPEAKER_02So I like that we kind of turned this over to the teacher piece of it. I was just recently at a training learning how to use drones and they set up different stations where one gentleman was building the drone right in front of you. So you watched it as he was working on it. But then he had, for the more experienced group, a table off to the side with just written directions. So just modeling different things like that. And then one group that just already had done this before. So we're not holding teachers back. We're not pushing too far. We're giving the different options. So I think if we can model that more with adults in our roles, they're more likely to flip that around and do that with kids.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Always all about the experience, I think.
SPEAKER_01We didn't learn that way. Right. So people aren't doing it on purpose, they just don't have the exposure, which is what we talk about with steels. Like we didn't learn science this way. Someone told us if there was a right or wrong answer, that there's a procedure that we follow. Yeah. UDL is the framework that supports steels, that supports design thinking, that supports learner agency and and all that stuff. That it because it's universal in nature, it's in the name, it really is something that can be applied to any practice or idea. So that's another reason why it's worth the time to spend learning about. Yeah. And it's all we cannot have this conversation without giving credit where credit is due. A lot of this isn't our thinking, it's our learning. We've learned from CAST, which is the leading organization for universal design for learning, comes out of Harvard University. They do the research, they do the compiling, and they stay active learners as well. So the reason the update has happened is because we know more. They were being more culturally responsive. They were paying attention to the new research. So we have to give them credit for doing this work. And then other people have also do the work as well. But you pay attention to the people that really understand it.
SPEAKER_03Is that where you would say, if I'm new to this and I don't know what my support system is currently? Is that where you would suggest people go to?
SPEAKER_01No, they come to me first. Yes, they go to cast.org.
SPEAKER_03Then say, Jesse, what do I do here?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yes. Okay. Or they come to one of our like learning sessions because then there's others in the room. So you're not learning just with your district, you're learning with others.
Joy And The Updated Guidelines
SPEAKER_03It's pretty cool to think about like how you don't know what you don't know until you're exposed to it. So having the way you guys designed your professional learning is where you have like the large groups and then you get into district teams. I think that's a huge way of allowing for exposure to different opportunities, exposure to different barriers, exposure to different ways in which removing those barriers, because it doesn't have to look the same. One barrier could have three different ways of removing it or like levels of removing it, right? Because you don't have to remove, I don't know if you have to remove all of it, but like there have to be like levels of whatever. I don't know enough about this, but I really appreciate the way that you guys were intentional with the design of having a hive mind and then bringing it down small, and then you're being responsible for your own learning.
SPEAKER_01Sort of interesting because what we did was we looked at professional learning and we said, okay, what are the barriers?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And then we said, okay, what would be the potential way to remove that barrier?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Let's do it. So we use the UDL thinking, the goals, barriers, options to design the professional learning.
SPEAKER_04And that continues as and no sessions have ever been the same. It's always start from ground zero. Whoever's in our space, that's the content context we're working with, and that's how the design sort of flows based on that.
SPEAKER_00That's actually really cool. Yeah. Keeps it fresh. So we have a tradition on your favorite podcast that we offer today in this room. If you act now, you will get the second and third final thought because the true host of the show gets the final thought. So we'd like to open it up to you, either one of you, who maybe there's something you didn't get to say or you had something sparked that you'd like to share.
SPEAKER_04No, I think the only thing I would say is we appreciate you inviting us to be on this podcast to talk about universal design for learning. We both passionately believe in it and we are very passionate about it. And I love that the conversation isn't just specific to one content, one context, but it's universal across all spaces, all places, and with all people. So thank you for that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we'd like to say I tried to force you into a specific content area and you still didn't do it, which is a testament to how this works. Yeah. This is you're like, no, sorry, can't answer that question, which is bad for a podcast, but good for modeling.
SPEAKER_03Well, she had an answer though.
Pre-Service Gaps And System Design
SPEAKER_01It was an answer for teachers to understand why we won't do that, right? So, and we take that lead from cast. So they will not, you will you will find strategies, but you will not find specific like contextual like examples, which means that someone has to do the work, and that's the educator, which is where the work should really live.
SPEAKER_03And that's where the learning lives too. If I don't do the work, I'm not learning.
SPEAKER_01I just am very thankful again for an opportunity to talk casually, like not through a PowerPoint slide around UDL. Just gives it a different life. And I think it's important. The one thing I think I didn't really touch on this is the work of belonging. So this is how we prevent kids from getting labels. This is how we make sure that we don't over-identify. This is how we meet the needs of all learners in a space. But really, what we're doing is just making it so that kids feel like they belong in school and in their community. And what better work is there to do?
SPEAKER_03And the teachers too. You create an atmosphere where the teachers belong in that space with each other, having yeah, it's phenomenal. Thank you for being here.
SPEAKER_00I would add to the work of belonging that it's never been more important than it is now. There's a lot going on for students that none of us in this room had to even think about or consider or deal with. And finding your spot where you belong, it might only be one small sliver, but at least you know you belong in that spot and you have somewhere to go back to. I think one thing that really really strongly hits me is and correct me if I'm wrong after we're done recording, is that no UDL is proactive. And when you see it that way, the differentiation really seems reactive. Yeah, I had a plan, but it was if this comes up, don't do it, don't do it. It's a final thought. Don't you do it?
SPEAKER_01Let it talk. You're very accurate in what you're saying. However, I think that they're both really important. So it's I think sometimes we like to get into like this contest of like, yeah, you, you know, UDL is proactive and that makes it sound like it's better than. And and I there's no place for that in education. They both are very important depending on what you're doing. Yeah, because you can't you can't proactively remove every barrier. So therefore, you better be ready to differentiate. Right. So it's it's I I think we need to stop with the comparing mind and just be okay with both things existing. And how do we deeply understand when to utilize that tool, like we talked about earlier? You know, we have to pull those tools out at the right time.
SPEAKER_00I appreciate you saying that. I wasn't trying to say one is over the other, but I'm sure that's where people land a lot. So that clarity is really important. Creating a space where all have access to it. We're creating multiple pathways in. You know, choose your pathway that gets you into the learning and then explore. You're going to learn more about who you are, learn more about yourself. So thank you. Thank you for coming on and sharing this with our learners. Thank you for tuning in and listening to the number one rated podcast in the entire universe. Be sure to like, subscribe, and send us fan mail with ways to contact you so that we can continue the conversation. Final word.
SPEAKER_03Oh my God.