ChangED

Math Joy Without The Math Panic

• Andrew Kuhn & Patrice Semicek • Season 3 • Episode 9

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What if joy—not drills—was the engine of math learning? We sit down with math leader Rob Bayer to unpack how students become “mathers” when classrooms center belonging, discourse, and sense-making. The conversation moves past slogans and straight into practice: diagnosing root causes behind “kids can’t add,” using manipulatives at every grade to surface thinking, and designing instruction that turns algorithms into outcomes rather than starting points.

We challenge the curriculum pendulum head-on. High-engagement tasks and Building Thinking Classrooms strategies can spark curiosity, but they can’t compensate for a weak core. At the same time, over-scripted teacher guides flatten professional judgment. Rob lays out a middle path: adopt materials that require student thinking, structure productive talk, and honor teacher facilitation—then back it up with real professional learning. Because impact doesn’t come from a book; it comes from teachers who understand learning trajectories and can guide students from concrete to representational to abstract with purpose.

We also zoom out to the system level. From rethinking when fractions and statistics truly make sense to leveraging Desmos as a teaching tool, we explore how standards, tools, and pedagogy can align around deeper understanding. The big takeaway crosses subjects: ask better questions, center reasoning, and measure success by insight, not speed. If students are mathing, they’re mathers—and our job is to build spaces where that identity thrives.

If this conversation sparks ideas for your classroom or district, share it with a colleague, hit follow, and leave a quick review telling us where you’ve found joy in math lately. Your insights help more educators find the show and keep the learning going.

Want to learn more about ChangED? Check out our website at: learn.mciu.org/changed

SPEAKER_00:

We are trying something new this season for us. Yeah. It's our our spin on the Smartless podcast, where they bring on a guest that wasn't as planned and the rest of us don't know who it is. And so we're going to see how this plays out. You're you're our you're our first victim. I mean, our first guest, excuse me. So we'll we'll see how it goes. Welcome back to Change Ed. Changed. Change Ed. The number one rated education podcast everywhere. Wherever you are listening to this, that's where it is. Number one. I am one of your hosts, Andrew Kuhn, education consultant from Montgomery County Intermediate Unit.

SPEAKER_03:

Here with me is Patrice Semichek. Apparently, Tony, we are now hosts.

SPEAKER_00:

I didn't say both of you. I just said I'm one of the hosts.

SPEAKER_03:

You know why? Great. Because I well, I threw a hissy fit and I was like, you know, you're only invited to things because you call yourself the host, not because Oh, because of other speaking engagements.

SPEAKER_01:

Understood.

SPEAKER_03:

I was a little salty. I mean, not really.

SPEAKER_00:

My agent told me to call you guys hosts.

SPEAKER_03:

Anyway, I am an educational consultant at the Montgomery County Intermediate Unit.

SPEAKER_01:

And everyone's favorite is Tony Maravito, IU21, SDF, podcaster, esports guru, golfer. Golfer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Golf extraordinaire. What am I doing?

SPEAKER_03:

Just make sure, because you're looking at Tony also. So like sit in a space where you can there you go.

SPEAKER_00:

Tony's so pretty.

SPEAKER_03:

Tony is pretty. I'm not saying you shouldn't look at Tony.

SPEAKER_00:

All right. This first guest is Tony's surprise guest. So Tony, I I know that you're a golf extraordinaire, so I'm gonna go. I can do that introduction. I'm gonna let you tee this up. Yep.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh wow. The dad jokes.

SPEAKER_01:

That already starts. So I've uh come to know this gentleman over the last year and a half or so. He's been an inspiration in our IU. We have nothing but rave reviews about this gentleman. I will let this gentleman introduce himself from the western side of the state, originally from Ohio, I believe. Mr. Rob Baer.

SPEAKER_02:

Hi, Rob.

SPEAKER_01:

It's Bayer, Tony. Come on. Mr. Rave Bayer.

SPEAKER_02:

Wow. Yeah, Tony.

SPEAKER_01:

He did have one job. I was too concerned about where you where you descended from.

SPEAKER_00:

Rob, where were you really from Ohio? Where in Ohio are you from? Oh lord.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, I'm originally from like southeastern Ohio. Don't hold that against me. And it was about an hour east of Columbus, a town called New Concord. It's actually the home of the astronaut John Glenn. So yeah, fun fact. I went to John Glenn High School. So yeah. Got to meet him and his wife multiple times when I was in high school. And actually, I was in ninth grade when he became the oldest man to go into space. Like I was in ninth grade and they had a whole like CNN was at our high school and all that stuff. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00:

So you know, not everybody can say they've gone to John Glenn High School. So that's that's pretty unique. So thank you ring on somebody who could say they went to John Glenn High School. That's why I did it. Rob, I actually Rob, I used to live in Lancaster, Ohio. So far, like it's a little bit farther south from where you're at. But it's nice to meet a fellow Ohioan.

SPEAKER_03:

Tony, did you ever live in Ohio? I didn't.

SPEAKER_00:

I did not. No. Well, we always talk about Florida. So it feels good.

SPEAKER_03:

Just because it's a very special place. Florida's a very special place.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, we do not always so the reason I asked Rob to be on the podcast was because he's been helping us out in the world of math. Yes. So I fit I felt like it's fit right in with our whole STEM situation here. And he works well, I'll let him speak about all of this, but he works for Inova Matt. Amazing career prior to this in in mathematics. And uh he's kind of changed the way that I look at math. And definitely now we've had him for two years in a row because he keeps being asked for. So Rob, I'll let you take it from there. Yeah, I don't know how far back you want me to go, but a good beginning.

SPEAKER_03:

You were born. Okay.

SPEAKER_06:

I uh prior to what I'm doing now, I previously was a kid. And so hey, makes sense to it. That's actually why Tony brought me on. No, so so I was a I was a math teacher, and after my time being a math teacher, there was a conversation my wife and I had, and that I basically wanted to try to impact more kids. So I went into administration. I ended up at a charter school for about seven months as an administrator, uh like a building level administrator for a variety of reasons. It was not the proper spot for me. So literally day two on the job, I said I needed to leave, otherwise, this was gonna totally ruin my whole career and what I've worked for. So I left, ended up getting hired at IU1, and I was a math curriculum specialist at IU1 for four and a half years, okay, and did a lot of work there. And it spanned pre-COVID through COVID. And then I left IU1 and became the executive director for K-12 Math Science and STEM at Pittsburgh Public Schools for the whole city. And I was there for two and a half years. And then a year ago, I was at NCSM, the National Council of Supervisors of Mathematics in Chicago. And there's a a vendor friend of mine that he said, You I know you guys just adopted a math curriculum, but you need to come see these people. I entered that was introduced to 15 crazy Spaniards that love math and want to have a good time.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

That and you know, I'm almost 11 or like 10 or 11 months into my time, and they love math and want to have a good time. Like it's literally and like do whatever we can to help kids. So it was kind of a leap of faith getting out of like Pizzers and getting into a field where you're not as protected in terms of like, you know, unions and stuff like that. But it's been incredibly fulfilling. Like I'm able to travel a little bit now and a lot of bit and do a lot of work with educators all across the state. So it's kind of my story for that.

SPEAKER_00:

You you know, Rob, I want to lean into you were saying they want to have fun. A lot of times math can feel like a chore or feel like a job and can be a struggle for students. So I'm wondering if you can tell us a little bit about like what does that look like? What does it look like to have fun in math? What is what is that?

SPEAKER_06:

Let's uh let's call it joy, right? Because that's like the buzzword where we're talking about having joy in math. And to be completely transparent, I think I think what joy, what I thought joy was six years ago in mathematics, I was so wrong. I wanted kids to have to be playing like games with cards, dominoes, dice, you know, and you know, playing games like led towards fluency and build towards fluency. But I really didn't know what I was doing and what like the true joy was until I started diving into it. For me and and for like on the Novomat, what true joy is is like that aha for kids. Getting kids to like actually feel like they belong in the classroom, that they actually can do the math. That one of my good friends, Deborah Perk uh Curtin, or wait, Deborah Perk Clayton.

unknown:

Shit.

SPEAKER_06:

Deborah Perk Clayton. Yeah. I she just got married, so I have to remember her married name. But Deborah uh Pert Clayton. She uh she talks about how you know readers read. Like if you're reading, you're a reader, right? If you're writing, you're a writer. So if you're mathing, you're a mather.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, we've had her out before. I love I was like, he's going there. I love that concept.

SPEAKER_06:

She just wrote a book, and I literally just bought it two days ago with her and standing next to me. I was like, hey, I'm buying your book. So this idea of having kids be mathers and that they belong in the classroom, that they can actually do math. And I think the other part of it is defining what success looks like in math class. Like success for some kids is just they contributed an idea and you accepted that they said something. And whether it's right or wrong and not shooting it down is like that's key and pivotal. And like that's like true joy in classroom. Like you're you're joyful when you feel like you belong, you're joyful when you feel like you feel figure some things out. That's and when you stay true to like learning progressions and like what we call learning trajectories, if you stay true to that, like it's gonna build foundational knowledge for students, which then leads to that aha. To me, that's that's that joy, that's the the high energy. And then like if you've been around our Nova Map folk, they're just a fun group, they love life. And I've never been a part of, and this is no knock on any place I've ever worked, but the Spanish are built different, yeah. They are and they just and and I mean that in all the enduring qualities, they are absolutely amazing humans, and I've never had a better time.

SPEAKER_03:

That's kind of why I'm I'm excited for you and a little jealous. But going back to your point of like the joy in math, because I work with Andrew a lot, which is a downer.

SPEAKER_01:

Joy sucker.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, when I was like, what are gonna make him a shirt, joysucker? I'm like, what is fun?

SPEAKER_00:

Can you please explain to me what fun looks like?

SPEAKER_03:

He like makes the opposite of fun. But that's kind of why I was also a math consultant for 10 years at MCIU before I did science and all the gifted stuff. But I fell in love with the idea of which one doesn't belong because there's entry points for everybody, and every kid can feel successful because it doesn't even have to be numbers, it can be shapes or pictures or all kinds of stuff. And I love the idea of making sure that all students have entry points. Because I remember vividly teaching in Philadelphia and thinking, my kids don't even know how to add. They don't understand and they don't know it with automaticity or accuracy. And when we are in undergrad, I was taught a lot of like they need to know their facts, they have to know their facts, they have to know their facts. Yes, they do need to know their facts so they can free up their working memory. But at the same time, like there's tools that we have now that allow them to access math differently without having to memorize all these facts and doing those horrible time tests and just creating a lot of anxiety.

SPEAKER_06:

So, like you just said something that yeah, I think Tony's heard me say this to teachers. When when we say things like our our kids don't know how to add, like they like they struggle with addition, our kids struggle with multiplication, they they don't know their facts. I think we're painting with a broad brush. And I think that what we need to do is start asking a deeper question, much like if you've been a part of like the data-wise protocol where it's all about the root cause and trying to dig deeper, it's like, okay, so what what's the root cause here? Because kids not understanding how to add or not understanding how to multiply, that's a symptom, but that's not the root cause. So, what's the root cause here? So, like for me, if a kid's struggling with addition, are they struggling with the concept of like adding on, or are they struggling with the concept of making 10 or there are doubles, or maybe the like it goes deeper to like just adding on number concepts at all?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

Not or or do they know what a number is? Do they look at the number five and do they understand that that's five objects? Like that because the actual numbers that we as students or as kids are like you know, three, two, three, four years old, and we start exposing them to numbers, we're showing them these numbers and having them blindly rotely memorize those, just like we do with letters. Right. I was just about to say it's so much like letters, you don't even yes, it's uh and for whatever reason, I guess it works for letters, but and but with in math, but it I mean like it's it's a good foundation, but then you have to tie it, you have to tie it to something. Like you, if you just leave them there and you don't tie it to anything in terms of like uh quantity, like having quantifiers and then also talking about like what's more and what's less, then we're missing. So, like if a kid has never really developed that, fully developed that, that we get on to like grade three, yeah, and like our kids are struggling, like they don't know how to multiply. Well, they may not know how to add either. So we have to go deeper, like we have to really go deep into what the root causes. So just anybody who's who's listening, just start challenging yourselves, like ask deeper questions, and use manipulatives.

SPEAKER_03:

I don't care how old they are. Like high schoolers should be using manipulatives to demonstrate their thinking and representations, yes, yeah. That's why I loved I loved the idea. We talked a lot about CRA when I first started, a concrete representational abstract piece. Because to your point, like we don't know what they don't know without going deeper and figuring it out. And if they can't show you with cubes or tally marks or whatever you're using, then it becomes uh easier to diagnose and to help them forward faster.

SPEAKER_06:

So I I just got back from C N C SM in Atlanta. Oh, yeah, and the one night, like I took Pam Harris to dinner and we were talking deeply about if anybody who doesn't know Pam Harris, her podcast is called Math is Figure Autable. The uh website is also called Math is Figure Autable. And there was like six of us. It was like her and her two people that work for her, and then like myself with Albert and Lauda, who's our uh she's our like one of our main authors for the Thinking Math product. So I had basically two of our main authors with Pam and her two team members, and we sat there and just went deep into mathematics. That's awesome. Talking about like like I'm talking, it was a it was a two and a half or two hour and 45 minute like dinner quote unquote dinner. Yeah, like it was long, and it was very deep into math and talking about learning trajectories and how like we build the learning or the thinking math product uh for our pre-K to five core curriculum. And then because she had questions, Pam had questions, she's heard a lot about us, and she was like, I need to see more. So we dove really deep into it and had a wonderful conversation. And everything you're saying, Patrice, is the same, is like what came out. Like we talked about like building concepts and making relationships with numbers and like seeing patterns because numbers are patterns, and how do those build and how they connect? And I I don't want to spoil anything, but she said something that I've never heard anybody say, so that's actually gonna be on my podcast. So I'm not gonna spoil it here.

SPEAKER_05:

Wait, no, Rob.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. I mean, just so we're clear, Rob, this is a world renowned. I mean, if you wanted to go out to the world, this is a four listeners.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, she she had a hot take on CRA.

SPEAKER_02:

And I think thumbs up for time in the middle.

SPEAKER_06:

Equal.

SPEAKER_02:

Rob, really?

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, and come on, you can't do that. She she said it and I went, I'm sorry, what? And it turned into a very deep conversation. I said, Can I get you on the podcast? And we could talk about this. And she's like, Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

So where do you fall on like the Dan Meyer 3X tasks situation?

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, they're fine.

SPEAKER_03:

I I feel like they become a sensation. And I think people, especially with Peg Smith's book about the five practices, I think the combination of the two is a good place to go. It's not a great place to live. And I think sometimes we get stuck in. I heard about this online. Dan's super exciting to listen to, really fun. The problems are really fun, but there's a time and a place, and I feel like we sometimes let the pendulum swing too much and we do too much of that versus I think there needs to be a nice mix of his stuff plus like practice, really understand the concept.

SPEAKER_06:

I think free act tasks are beautiful if you have a really crappy product, like core curriculum. Like if you're if your core curriculum salesman. Well, no, I listen, I I'll I've told Tony many times I suck at sales. Like I am I am an educator that wants to help kids.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

And if I talk to somebody and they're like, hey, it's not for us, I go, all right, see ya. Like some friends. Like that's like I'm terrible at sales.

SPEAKER_05:

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

But but it has nothing to do with like this is not from coming from a Nova Map piece. This is come this is literally coming from like if you have a crappy core product, and I'm not gonna name names because I'm pretty sure at this point I can get in trouble. I used to be able to name names, but I wasn't working for a competitor. Yeah, I can't name names anymore, pretty sure.

SPEAKER_03:

But some really good conversations off air.

SPEAKER_06:

Oh, for sure. But but if you have a really terrible core curriculum that you need something to get kids to think in math class and you need to get them to have conversations and and you're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, then you're force feeding like the building thinking classrooms practices, which I love. I mean, they he endorses us, Peter endorses us, and we're the only company that he endorses in terms of math. But you're force feeding a bad product to like do the same thing, like on standing vertical non-permanent services, like that doesn't make sense. And the same thing with like, oh, we need to get kids to think more and make them more quote unquote real. And so let's get an empty tank and put water in it and let's calculate how long this is gonna be. Look, 14 years ago, when I first saw that video, like it was freaking groundbreaking for me. Like, like it changed my my way of thinking.

SPEAKER_03:

Even the way he explained how to do what you have, like you're saying, a traditional textbook. How do you pull that apart and make it a little more yeah?

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, and and so and why do but why do we have to do that with a traditional textbook? Because they're so bad, like it has not, and especially at the high school level, yeah, there's no engagement, and especially at the high school level, like name a good high school product. There isn't, and I don't blame the the publishers for for lack of trying, and I don't blame teachers for for staying rooted in like what they know content-wise. I kind of blame what high school math really is. Yes, like I have so many questions on like where like what we are with that.

SPEAKER_03:

So anyway, so and you teach the way you were taught, and they haven't really been given opportunities to experience but what opportunities do they have too?

SPEAKER_06:

Right, like outside of like Desmos, using Desmos as a teaching tool, like the not just like using the calculator as a calculator because it's on the test now.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, it's so robot.

SPEAKER_06:

I'm talking like I'm talking like literally using it as a teaching tool, like as a as a means for kids.

SPEAKER_03:

Do you do you think it's a cart before the horse kind of thing? Or are they continuing to make curriculum because that's the way that that's what people are buying? People are buying a traditional curriculum because that's what they're used to, because that's how like I feel like it's this weird cycle. We've got to pull them out and be like, okay, I need you to experience this. And it's really hard with high school teachers because they already know all the math. Like you can't give them a novel concept most of the time. Like that's what I struggled with, especially with high school teachers. Well, one, because I am scared of them. And two, well, I'm an elementary teacher. Like, I know algebra one, and they're like, Okay, I teach trigonometry. And I'm like, I did that in high school forever ago. But I think sometimes we, as teachers, get stuck in, well, I already know how to do all of this, and then we then forget what it means to learn something or how it feels to learn something new. And so it's hard at the high school level because they already know all the concepts to teach them something new. Right. Like that's where I that's where I'm like, but it that that's the difference.

SPEAKER_06:

And the difference really is, and this isn't just for high school teachers, this is for all teachers. Yeah, there's a difference between knowing the content and knowing how to teach that content. Yeah, like that, those are two very different things.

SPEAKER_00:

So, Rob, if thinking of our listeners, if we are gonna try and break this cycle, I I know you said you can't name competitors, but what are some things, some some tools, hints of what we should be looking for? Because I think, you know, if we're gonna get out of this rut, we have to know better to do better. So, what are things that we how should we be analyzing these, you know, different curricula or materials or programs that we're looking at? Are there like basic things that we're just missing because we're so deep into the content, we miss these core pieces that could that could connect or tips or hints that you could suggest for our listeners?

SPEAKER_06:

That's a really great question. And I think it's this. If you did well, yeah, sorry. Don't worry, I'll I'll compliment him more later so that way you guys are it's like he's insufferable.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, thank you. Never welcome back.

SPEAKER_06:

No, I think the nape scores just came out, and we see that there are massive trends in fourth grade and eighth grade mathematics that's you know kind of trending downward. We oftentimes we have politicians saying that our math scores are uh not be able to commit to compete with the rest of the world. We look at the state itself and we trying to fix what's happening in our classrooms. So I'm saying all this because like whatever we don't we're doing is clearly not working. But then what we do we go when we talk curriculum, we start looking at resources that are familiar and then don't force us to change it all. You start looking at things that you know, you look at a book that I I can say this book because they are they stopped making it. Like Go Math is is a book that has been discontinued. And when I was at Pittsburgh Public Schools, Go Math was what they had for like six years, or actually they had I think they got an extension for like seven years. And when the teachers were wanting to get a new curriculum, and it was time for us to get a new curriculum before I left, they started to want like whatever. The next product was from you know folks that make Go Math. And I pushed back and I said, well, if what we're doing is not working, why would we want just a shinier object that's more of the same? And and it's not forcing kids to think, it's not forcing kids to talk, it's not allowing the teacher to be a facilitator, a facilitator of learning and getting and asking, you know, good questions. And then there's other products that go the pendulum, and Patrice, I love you to talk to pendulum because I I do I talk that pendulum as well. And there's other core curricular resources that that pendulum swung so far that it's so innovative that when you look at the teacher guides, that it's it's so over-scaffold for teachers. I'm not talking about scaffolding for for students, I'm talking about so over-scaffold for teachers that it's almost like that we forgot that teachers went to school for this. And like we should trust teachers. So, really, what we need to do is have we need to be looking for core curricular resources that make kids think, that get kids to you know talk, that allows the teacher to be a facilitator. But that's just the vehicle. The magic happens with teachers. We need to invest in our teachers and the PD and the change. Like, like that's and then it's and it's not just investing in the teachers, like our administrators should be in those conversations. Like if we're in at the smaller schools, and I'll tell you why I'm saying that, but in at the smaller schools, if I'm a building principal and I I have somebody coming in to work with my teachers and changing their math practices, like teaching them deeper content, talking math pedagogy, I should be in the room so I know how to lead that. Now, at a at the larger schools, you know, building principals can do that, but at the larger schools, like when you have you know curriculum directors, assistant superintendents, whoever see, you know, five, eight, fourteen, one hundred schools, whatever it is, depending on the school district, it's much harder for them to do that, but they have to trust that their people below them will be able to do that. So I really think when you're looking to select a core curricular resource, like talk to them. And I think the other piece too is like you got to know who you're who you're working with. Like what company are you working with? And that was something that was big for me when I was going to select who was coming in to present to us. I got it somewhat right at the time, but knowing what I know now about like about a Nova Mat, like a Nova Mat would have been on that list now. But like they they weren't ready yet. Yeah. When I did that, you got to know who like how are we gonna support our teachers? Because that's who's the that's the magic. Like the core curricular resource is one thing. And and like Andrew, like it's a resource.

SPEAKER_02:

That's what it is.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, it's a resource, but it but it's a car. Like like what the what is what good is a Lamborghini if you can't drive it, right? Right? Right. So so like you have to you have to trust your teachers and you have to build them up and support them at a systematic level. Like it has to be, otherwise, uh, it's gonna fail. So it doesn't matter. Like you can pick the shiniest object in the in the store, but once you hand it to somebody who doesn't know what to do with it, yeah, and then you're just not supporting them, you go, wipe my hands and go, hey, good luck.

SPEAKER_03:

Resource, go go do it.

SPEAKER_06:

And then and then in three years, you're evaluating why it didn't work.

SPEAKER_03:

One of the things that we did out here that was really powerful, and I don't know if you guys had that out in Pittsburgh, was Carnegie Math had these week-long institutes where they would basically reteach teachers the math concepts in a very in-depth, deep way. I know that for me as an elementary teacher, math was never really my forte. I didn't really love it that much. Mostly because I had Mr. White and his pocket protectors who like made me do math in ways that I didn't really like. But I also didn't really understand a whole lot of the concepts because I was taught algorithms. I was taught to memorize. I wasn't taught to think about the math and why I was doing what I was doing. Especially one of the things that I loved, Carnegie had this one about early fraction concepts. And it was amazing to watch teachers go, oh, like that's why you invert and multiply. Like it's crazy to me that we weren't taught why or how the math worked. We were just taught to memorize.

SPEAKER_01:

Gotta get through the content and get the test.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. And I think that's for a lot of teachers, like that's kind of where we're stuck. And we weren't given the ability to, to your point, have the support to go in and say, I need to dig a little deeper and understand when the common core came out, I don't know, 10, 15 years ago, it feels like forever. When that came out, the big shift was, well, I have to teach them 18 different ways of doing the same thing, but they really just end up at the algorithm, but not understanding, like I can do all these different ways. And yes, the algorithm is the most efficient way of doing it. And that's why we all do it. But if I don't understand how we got to the algorithm or what the algorithm is doing, like I still don't understand math.

SPEAKER_01:

Speaking of that change, I know you talked to tons of people across Pennsylvania. Do you hear anything like at the state level that change is coming? Anything that you could share as far as that standard, anything.

SPEAKER_02:

Standards.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

I I did hear something at the PCTM conference. Somebody from PDE, I'm not gonna name drop, but uh somebody from PDE.

SPEAKER_03:

So you're good.

SPEAKER_06:

Well, there's two, and one of them said it. But this person said in a room full of teachers that here in the next couple years they're gonna be blowing up the PA core math standards and and rebuilding. And the example that was given was, you know, like let's look at box and whisker plots that's taught in like fifth grade or sixth grade, whatever it is. Um why? Why is it there? Like it doesn't, it has no ties to anything. Like, why are what are we doing? And so moving it to where it's more of like a statistical thing, but where we can actually dive into the stats. Otherwise, it's just like uh it's just there. So I don't know what that's gonna look like. I don't know. I would love to be a part of that to kind of dive through it because, like with us, with all the work that we do with learning trajectories and how students are supposed to learn mathematics and in the order that they do, I think we could at least be a fly in the wall and and you know and ask some questions. But it it wasn't like I'm this was a private conversation, it was a very public forum with like a hundred people in the room.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, I mean, 15 years, we've learned a lot in 15 years.

SPEAKER_06:

Have we?

SPEAKER_03:

Well, I don't know. I was hopeful. Listen, you're over here being hopeful about other things. I can be hopeful that we've learned we've learned more about how the brain works, so maybe that can come into it.

SPEAKER_06:

That's true. That's true. Well, I I think what I I would really love, and this is like let's be hopeful. Let's be hopeful for a second. Yeah, it's nice. Um you know, you know the the George Washington skit from Nate Bergetzzy literally watching that last because Albert told me to. Albert told you to?

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

So we get so many things wrong in in America with math, like so many things. I'm glad like what why don't we just do the metric system and do base 10 and like make it easier for everybody? Like, isn't that like that's a dream? Because, like, worldwide, they don't introduce fractions until fifth grade.

SPEAKER_03:

Because you have to understand the concepts. If you don't understand addition and subtraction and multiplication and division, fractions don't make sense.

SPEAKER_06:

Well, also in fifth grade for fractions worldwide, it's because of measurement. Like, they don't say I went half a kilometer and say I went 500 meters.

SPEAKER_03:

We don't teach measurement every grade, every year for everything. Like that was one of my biggest struggles with working with students who are like in the low incidence population. Every time I went into a classroom, an IEP had time and measurement. Time, money, and measurement. Those were the three IEP goals. And I'm like, oh guys.

SPEAKER_06:

Time, money, and measurement. I have so many questions.

SPEAKER_00:

Rob. Oh Lord. We have a very long-standing tradition of the second to last like final thought. It was a good point. That's what I was gonna say. However, you give us amazing actionable items. So we will give you an opportunity if you'd still like to throw in a second to last final thought. But I want to give my final thought based off of what you just said, because I actually had a lot of different things written down here.

SPEAKER_03:

And that would be you're gonna give him the you said you're gonna give him the opportunity to have a last thought. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

No, no, no, no, Patrice. He's he's the knower of all knowing. Let him tell me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

You're welcome back anytime, sir.

SPEAKER_03:

You didn't pick up on the sarcasm there?

SPEAKER_00:

No, no, that was no sarcasm. I told you I was gonna build him up.

SPEAKER_03:

Rob.

SPEAKER_00:

So, Rob, I will now dramatically pause to allow you to give your second to second last final thought. If you have one, would you like to go?

SPEAKER_06:

Andrew's done. I like this, I like the circle a little bit, and then maybe it takes me another hour to get to that final thought. So, you know, you come coming to a Nova Mat has been one of the greatest joys and probably one of the best decisions I've ever made. And it's and it's solely because of the impact that we're having on kids. And it's it's growing so rapidly. Like we are endorsed by Peter Lilendall with Buddha and Thinking Classrooms. We focus on learning trajectories with with kiddos. Our pre-K and K product is truly the best math pre-K and K I've ever seen. And there isn't anybody close. And I I stand firm in that. The way that our we support schools and teachers with our math success managers, and like like we truly are all about like wanting kids to be better. I mean, obviously, like we're a company, so like you know, like it's a business, but but our business are is kids. So I really believe that this is the best it's the best thing that I've ever done in terms of moves, because truly the best thing I ever did in terms of like a career move was like the like working for Pittsburgh Public Schools. I am so thankful that I had that opportunity. So, like my my multiple final thoughts. So in in terms yeah, in terms of like it what you're looking for, if you haven't heard of of us or you haven't heard of me, like you can look up my podcast, uh Debate Math Podcast to learn more about me and like see kind of the work that I'm doing there. Anybody can reach out to me. That's in it's not just in PA, even though I'm a PA guy. I'm an Ohio boy, but a PA guy. Uh but you can reach out to me. But I like if and if I don't know if people are in New Jersey are listening or whatever, Maryland, because like we're kind of like in the everywhere.

SPEAKER_05:

We're everywhere, everywhere.

SPEAKER_06:

If you are people on the moon, please reach out to me. Um, I would love to visit you. That's that that's kind of like like we like I love talking math with anybody. And honestly, this podcast could have been another two hours.

SPEAKER_00:

Honestly. Yeah. Absolutely. So this podcast, Change Ed, started from the three of us having conversations about the changes that were coming in Pennsylvania when it came to science and science standards. And we found that these changes were happening in isolation, and that you know, these conversations we're having and we're part of were great, but they weren't getting out. The common thread that I'm hearing, all the things that you're saying, it's almost like we could not that we should, but we could cancel out any name of any content area and say, like, these are best practices. This is what we should be doing.

SPEAKER_01:

Just getting kids to think.

SPEAKER_00:

Good teaching is a good teaching. So, you know, these are all things that we've been literally talking about for three seasons about asking better questions. How are you involving students so that they can share their thinking and learning and being part of the process? And then you well, you're saying how important are the answers, which has been a huge fundamental shift for us, specifically in the science world. But to hear that we're talking about that in math, we're talking about that in science. So it's learning, and truly why we came to the name of change ed was, you know, for us in Pennsylvania, it's that the news science, technology, engineering, environmental literacy, and sustainability standards. You know, where was I going to Tony? I lost it. I totally lost no idea.

SPEAKER_01:

I had it. You were doing well for a little while.

SPEAKER_00:

It was until I couldn't say the owners. I love your final thought. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_02:

Universal. Rob? We're done, Rob.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that these are universal things that it goes across. So it's not like, you know, no one's picked like, okay, science, we're gonna fix this here. It's it's this, these are what are being talked about across the board. And the other the other two things that you mentioned that I want to highlight one more time because they were so powerful and impactful for me was that there is a difference between knowing the content and teaching the content. And that is so real in all the conversations we've had again around steals or in math or in any content area, the teachers feel intimidated by the content when really there is that significant difference.

SPEAKER_03:

Or they know it so deeply that they forget steps A, B, and C.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. It's one extreme or the other, is where where we find most educators, not kind of that happy medium of uh that balance. And the other thing is that to find the joy in education in general and and like you said, fun and joy. If you're not having fun, if you're not enjoying what you're doing, your students sure aren't doing it. And I actually want to connect what you were saying at the end about the barometer, right, with the answers. How important are the answers? When you're sharing about that teacher who said, I give this great lecture, well, that was their barometer, right? So maybe we need to assess our own barometers and how are we doing this? Not what makes us feel good, what do we think was successful? But if students, which they are and should be, are the audience, if they are our customers, what are our customers telling us? What are we getting back from our customers? Not just compliance, but you know, how do we know that they're learning and growing and being stretched? So, Rob, this is a great, great meeting. I thank you for all the wonderful compliments that you gave me.

SPEAKER_03:

Tony, nice find.

SPEAKER_01:

My pleasure. Thanks, guys.

SPEAKER_00:

Make sure to like and subscribe and tell all your friends. Oh my lord, and okay, we'll kick it off.

SPEAKER_03:

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

SPEAKER_00:

I heard a little me take a little drink. Sorry, Rob.

SPEAKER_03:

He's make he's got mouth.

SPEAKER_01:

Rob's got a flight, I got a tea time, you know? Tough.

SPEAKER_03:

What time's your tea time?

SPEAKER_06:

No, I'm I'm finding that Tony always has a tea time, by the way. Oh wait.

SPEAKER_03:

Tony always has a tea time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm going to Kio in two weeks.