ChangED
ChangED is an educator based podcast for Pennsylvania teachers to learn more about the PA STEELS Standards and science in general. It is hosted by Andrew Kuhn and Patrice Semicek.
ChangED
Why Cross-Cutting Concepts Matter More Than Ever in the Age of AI
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What happens when we move beyond memorizing facts and formulas in science education? This conversation takes a deep dive into the transformative power of three-dimensional learning—a framework that balances knowing (disciplinary core ideas), thinking (cross-cutting concepts), and doing (science and engineering practices).
For generations, science education has overemphasized the "knowing" dimension, leaving students with memorized facts but little understanding. Our hosts share personal experiences with traditional science education—from mindlessly copying answers from the back of physics textbooks to struggling through plant photosynthesis memorization—and contrast these with the rich learning that happens when students engage with scientific concepts more deeply.
Through real-life classroom examples, we explore how even young learners can develop scientific thinking when given opportunities to observe, question, and discuss. This approach cultivates curiosity and problem-solving skills that traditional memorization-focused instruction often stifles.
The conversation takes on additional urgency in the age of artificial intelligence. As AI increasingly handles knowledge-based tasks, the cross-cutting concepts—patterns, cause and effect, systems thinking, and more—become even more valuable. These thinking skills represent the uniquely human contribution to science that AI cannot replicate.
Whether you're an educator looking to transform your science teaching or simply curious about how education is evolving to meet future demands, this discussion offers valuable insights into creating lifelong scientific thinkers who approach the world with genuine curiosity and the skills to explore independently.
Listen, subscribe, and join us in rethinking science education for a world that increasingly values not just what you know, but how you think.
Want to learn more about ChangED? Check out our website at: learn.mciu.org/changed
Welcome back to Change Ed Changed Changed Number one educational podcast everywhere. That is a known entity and unknown entities in our universe. I am your host, Andrew Kuhn, a project consultant from Montgomery County Intermediate Unit.
Speaker 2:And here with me is Patrice Semecek, also a project consultant out of the Montgomery County Intermediate Unit.
Speaker 3:And Tony Mirabito from CLIU21, staff development facilitator.
Speaker 1:Tony, you said you have a question that I will not be able to answer before we started this podcast, so I am ready for your question, sir, I'm hoping you can answer this.
Speaker 3:This is a are you smarter than a fifth grader? Science-based question. Please listen carefully. I know this is.
Speaker 1:Is this multiple choice? It sure is. Oh.
Speaker 3:What do plants use to make their own food during photosynthesis? A, oxygen, b water, b water, c, sunlight, d all the above.
Speaker 1:D all the above.
Speaker 3:D is correct. Plants use sunlight, water and carbon dioxide to make food. During photosynthesis, oxygen is actually a byproduct, but it's part of the process, so it is all the above.
Speaker 1:Good thing I paid attention in class when we talked about that. I feel like we talked about photosynthesis and plant A lot. A lot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's because that's all we know.
Speaker 3:Chlorophyll more like borophyll.
Speaker 2:And it was just memorizing and I remember thinking this is the worst, like it is not fun, it is not science, it is not like. I remember thinking in seventh grade like it is not fun, it is not science, it is not like. I remember thinking in seventh grade like I don't want to do this anymore. Why am I here?
Speaker 3:I was a struggling reader and that's why I hated science, because it was just textbook textbook, textbook.
Speaker 1:And then here's a quiz yeah, and I think I want to expand on this. I jumped right into cross-cutting concepts because that was the first thing I thought of, that. That was absent there. But I think we can talk about it from three-dimensional learning and look at it from a broader lens, and that lens would be when I was learning this science that you were talking, that you asked me about it was. It was all about knowing. So, with three three-dimensional learning, we talk about it from knowing, which is the disciplinary core, ideas, thinking, which would be cross-cutting concepts, and do and doing which we call it the science, engineering, practices.
Speaker 1:And honestly, I was like science. Why are we doing science If we know all these things? Why do I have to learn this? Like everything's already been figured out, everything's already been discovered, and I was a kid in elementary school thinking this, not, oh my gosh, the possibilities. There's a whole world of wonder out there. There's lots for us to figure out. So I found myself moving in that realm instead of being curious and wanting to figure out more to. I must not know this Somebody has already figured this out why X, y and Z is happening. So there's so much natural phenomenon that's happening in the world around us, but we don't take the time to slow down our lives and actually look at it and ask the questions and be curious, because we were, if I could almost use the word, conditioned to be like I have to know the answer. If I don't know the answer, then I'm not smart enough or I shouldn't be in this realm. Have you had a similar experience, patrice?
Speaker 2:Can you reframe me? No, listen, I was trying.
Speaker 3:I was full-fledged into a question. I wanted to ask andrew, and then he asked me one so here's what I was trying to.
Speaker 2:I was trying to write down the podcast that we've already done, so that way I know where we're at in terms of recording. I'm sorry, can you ask that question again? I will. My phone is away and my pen is down.
Speaker 1:Ask it again so my question is what was your experience as a learner when it came to three-dimensional learning? What was the most important and what do you remember generalizing from your learning experience?
Speaker 2:What was most important to me, or most important, or what felt like the most important.
Speaker 1:What felt like it was the most important thing.
Speaker 2:It depended for me on the class. So my physics class I think we've talked about Bob before where my physics teacher assigned problems that were all the odd problems and all the answers were in the back of the book and we called him Bob because we legitimately weren't required yeah, and we weren't required to show work. We weren't required to do anything other than answer the questions. Now I think looking at it from a teacher's lens, having the answers in the back of the book, sounds like a great idea, because you're self-checking as a 17 year old or 16 year old in a physics class that no one enjoyed being in because it was like Bears Bueller's teacher, like that's what it felt like, sounded like it became this thing where I learned literally no physics. And looking at things now like physics is actually one of the more fun sciences, like you can do a lot of really cool stuff. We went on a field trip to universal to study the roller coasters as part of my school in.
Speaker 2:Florida as part of my physics class. But I think people go to Dorney or whatever oh yeah, they as part of their physics class. So, like that stood out, did we do physics on the Hulk? Sure did not. Did we get on the Hulk four times? Sure did. Like there was no learning that actually took place. But when I look it depended on the class that I was in. So in bio, because I think it was a little more tangible, I retained a lot more in that class because I had my hands in it, I was doing the stuff, I was thinking about it. There was no Bob to assist me Physics. What I remember from physics is Bob, not physics at all.
Speaker 3:For my experience experience it was a lot of dcis, the main science content, and then the cccs, the big ideas that connect those, the scps were almost connecting ideas. I had a very isolated bits and pieces, that's nice, no scps, no, like when you just said bio, I remember dissecting frogs with uh mr sabo, who mr say was an all-time great, but other than that I don't remember too many things that were hands-on. Or if they were hands-on, it was rushed because we only had 20 minutes and no fault to my teachers.
Speaker 2:We got to the lab at the end after the lecture.
Speaker 3:And all my teachers were amazing people. I still talk to a ton of them, but that wasn't the expectation, so I just think they were doing what they knew best.
Speaker 2:Well, and in reality too, like forever and ever and ever, not just because of state testing. Testing has always been about the knowing. What do you know? Even before state testing because I think some of us are more no child left behind people than others kind of came out when I was in, I think, middle school, but even the testing that we had was still all on the knowing. So if I'm taught a certain way, I'm going to teach the same way, and if I'm assessed a certain way, I'm going to teach the same way. And if I'm assessed like, it's this vicious cycle that I think it's really hard to get out of.
Speaker 3:If I wasn't washing dishes at my parents' pizza shop and I had time to memorize the science vocab, then I did great on the test.
Speaker 1:Yeah, andrew. I'm also interested in what you said, tony, because I don't know that that is the usual experience. I would say for most educators that we talk to, knowing is king. That, by and large, is still the case in education, that knowing is most important. Then I think the SEPs or the doing is what would follow up after that, and the very last if there's any time at all left in the schedule would be trying to incorporate that thinking, which are the cross concepts, and I think that's why we struggle with them so much is because it's not been modeled really in any capacity and making those connections are so important. But, as Patrice said, it's not necessarily something that can be tested. So we struggle in education when it's not something that we can quantify. We're talking about a quality thing, not a quantifiable thing, which is this thinking part? It's not easily quantifiable.
Speaker 2:I think in a system that's churning out results, you can quantify the thinking with more open-ended, interconnected questions. It's not easily scored and graded, and the other thing that I think sometimes we fall into the trap of is I know this version of an answer to be true and if my student's response doesn't match this version or they're too outside of the box and they're thinking it doesn't align with what I'm looking for, it's not as easily graded. So I think there are opportunities for it. I think the hard part is giving time to grade it. We're not given enough time in any capacity to teach it and grade it in a way that would make a whole lot of sense. I think that that's kind of a huge disservice that we're also giving to our teachers too is that they don't have enough time to do any of this.
Speaker 1:Correct and that they're always being asked to do more and more and more. Time is always being taken away, yeah.
Speaker 3:So let me ask you this, circling back to the original question photosynthesis. How would you it's my downfall, I can only look at things through elementary lenses but how would you stelesify such a lesson for fifth grade, eighth grade, tenth grade? When it comes to photosynthesis, I'll let you think about that. I'll give you an example that I saw this year in kindergarten, that a teacher planted seeds in soil and over time it grew. Students took measurements, they drew models every single day. They would just really quickly work that. And then she also put rocks in soil and watered them, and so students could clearly see example non-example.
Speaker 3:Yes, love it and they worked on that and that was the conversation that was held in that classroom was so fruitful no pun intended that students actually walked away learning that you know plants need water, it needs light, it needs time to grow, it needs all of these things to make a plant, as opposed to rocks not growing. But to hear kindergartners talk about something like that was really cool.
Speaker 2:So to your point. I think we can teach the photosynthesis similarly. It's really about getting kids to make the connections, the conversations that go along with it, cause what stands out to me in your example, tony, is that the kids were talking about the science. The kids were talking about the measurements and those kinds of things. I think that to me, is how you steals a fight. It's less of us giving information, more of students absorbing things through experience or through it can be through reading, like I don't want us to ever get to the point where we're saying you shouldn't be reading in science because you should.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of things out there that can help you understand a concept better. Because we can't get microscopic in a fifth, eighth grade, sometimes even high school. We can't get to a microscopic level to see what's going on on a cellular level with the plants, to be able to understand it. So we have to make sense of it through what we already know, through video or through written word or whatever. So I think that for me, the steals of finding it is the conversations that go along with it and allowing kids to figure it out, instead of a direct response like we. She could have taken five minutes and said plants need this, this and and this Rocks aren't?
Speaker 1:living things.
Speaker 2:They're not going to grow. Boom Answer, solved Problem, move on. But what she did was she created a situation I'm assuming it's a she, because I think you said she. I'm sorry. What she did was gave them an opportunity to experience it and potentially fail in their understanding, so that they can make stronger connections to what's happening. So for me it's more of the in the steals of finding it. It's the students doing the things, not us just telling them what to do.
Speaker 1:The other thing I like about the analogy that you gave and the example that you gave was that they combined more than one thing.
Speaker 1:So you're combining concepts about living and not living, but you're learning about it through this idea of photosynthesis. The other part that I was thinking about, that I think I would love and maybe this would be a combination of some capacity is to bring in other things that we already see, know or experience. So we, as human beings, have a way that we consume things and that we use energy and that we grow and that we need things, but that's all of us.
Speaker 1:So there's an analogy that we can make, like comparing and contrast. Getting into those cross-county concepts again, how can we compare and contrast ourselves and plants and what they use or consume? Or transportation, automobile, right Like there's all these things that are utilizing the same concepts, but for a plant, it specifically needs this. For a human, we specifically need this. We can consume lots of different things to get them. Or an automobile, right Right now, you know, is it electric, is it a gas power? You know there's all this. So I think you could, you could expand it in a way to really understand. Do they get the concept of of this energy consumption and different ways to use it in the combination that comes together to make it all happen, and expand into other areas of science. And again, if you're using human beings, you're getting into the chemistry of how our body breaks things down and how it uses it.
Speaker 1:Because you said it was a combination, right, like it's the ox, I think you said oxygen actually isn't, is a byproduct and it's not actually part of it, and like same thing, like when we breathe, we're breathing in oxygen, we're breathing out carbon dioxide, and then you get into that whole how it's all connected, and you know Simba's circle of life, and. But I think if you're going to spend all that time on photosynthesis, instead of memorizing photosynthesis, let's connect it to all of these bigger things. So you get that what you said, that big idea, which is that cross-cutting concept. Let's hit home on that. That's what I want you to take away from it, because then, which will happen in the next generation or two? We're going to these foreign planets and we end up somewhere and we're like I don't know how this works. Let me think about these big ideas that I know to be true. Is that the case here? No, this is different.
Speaker 1:Okay, what can we connect it to? How do we figure out how it works? Because we're going to enter into a world of exploration in a way that we don't know before. So, as explorers, you need to use your background knowledge, which is something we always talk about, what you already know, but you also have to look at what you don't know. And how does this space work differently? We know what we know because we know it. This is actually feels like a really large analogy for steals we know what we know, but we don't know what we don't know. So how do we explore what we don't know in a manner that doesn't for space exploration, that doesn't jeopardize us or kill us or stay alive?
Speaker 3:but we also are trying to run these tests right I also, like in that example that I gave, that the teacher trusted the students. She at no point said that kindergartners can't do this, having them draw what they see like an observation. Now we're doing modeling. They're asking questions. Are they writing it on sticky notes? No, but she's writing them down on the big board and crossing them off as they're answering. So it was just really refreshing to see her give it a shot and the results that came from it.
Speaker 2:Did you get to talk to her afterwards?
Speaker 3:Just a little bit afterwards. Yeah, she said it's just a normal lesson. Like the kids are engaged, they're excited about it. It doesn't take more than five minutes to do a drawing of what do we see. Yeah, so she was on board.
Speaker 1:That's awesome and the learning happened over time. I think that's a huge shift to be like. The learning doesn't have to happen in this 15 15 minute lesson. We can expand this out because we as adults, even though we want to say that we can over a 15 minute podcast, if we change our minds, it doesn't happen that way. We've had two seasons of conversations about this big idea of NGSS and of steals and shifting our mindset. So it's lots of conversations and we're allowing that to happen, even with kindergartners, to give them time to say, okay, here's the connection I'm making, or what are you seeing, what are you not seeing? That's almost as important as what you are seeing, and allowing them to actually be scientists and ask those questions.
Speaker 2:That's the big piece too, for me in the shift of the standards is the cross-cutting concepts themselves being called out. And if that's the main focus of those cross-cutting concepts, then that allows us to go and you say this, you haven't said it in a while, but you said it in a lot of earlier podcasts instead of going an inch deep and a mile wide, we're going a mile deep and an inch wide right. So that is a huge shift in thinking, especially for, like our middle school, high school teachers that feel like they have to teach everything about everything, which for a long time they have. Now we're focusing on those cross-cutting concepts and bringing them back in, so that way, when I'm talking at kindergarten or first or second or whatever, by the time I hit seventh or eighth grade, I've talked about patterns, I've talked about all of the things, so that I can pull from that background knowledge that I don't have to go so far for so long.
Speaker 3:Not only that, the kids have been through these lessons then. Yeah. So the drawing, the modeling, the asking questions, the talking yeah, that should all come second nature, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the reason that that's important, that really great analogy that you just shared, that I've shared in the past, oh God, is that?
Speaker 2:I hesitated.
Speaker 3:It was inevitable.
Speaker 2:I hesitate to even say those words. Did I say them right, though? Usually?
Speaker 3:I'm saying picking up something I like when he quotes Spider-Man. Better yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh God, is that? What we're trying to do is create lifelong learners that are also scientists, whether it's a capital S or lowercase s, if you're a professional scientist or just in the way you live your life. But by doing it that way, by going really deep on this concept, then when I'm not with you, when you're not in my class, and you come up to something you don't know, you have a skill set to figure it out without me. Or the other way is, when you're a memorizer, you're like I don't know and guess what we face right now in the classrooms.
Speaker 2:I don't know and I don't know how to find the answer.
Speaker 1:And that's what I was going to say. We face in the classrooms is when students come up to you and say can you just give me the answer, like what are we doing? I don't want to just give you the answer, I want you to think about it, I want you to come up with, tell me what you see, or figure out how to find the answer.
Speaker 3:It is a big shift, though, because kids are just instant gratification now with everything social media or whatever.
Speaker 2:They don't have to. They don't have to.
Speaker 3:So that's another thing that teachers are going to struggle with is getting students to not going away.
Speaker 2:In fact it's going to compound. That I think is going to be the biggest learning curve for teachers is that we have to shift, Not that kids were super great. I got to be honest with you In the 90s I was still like just give me the answer. Like I don't care, give me the answer, but I at least knew. I at least knew how to find the answer. A little bit like go in the book and find it, the instant gratification, just ask AI.
Speaker 2:And they're going to get a relatively decent, if not very solid, answer, right. So we have to shift again, going back to those cross-cutting concepts. I think that's where this episode is going Going back to the cross-cutting concepts. If we're focusing on that and less on the other stuff, I think that's where the biggest bang for their buck is going to be.
Speaker 1:How many minutes are we at 22. All right, let's wrap it up.
Speaker 2:Okay, put a bow on it.
Speaker 3:Okay, what I hear you saying is yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, what resonates with me is my big takeaway Is that some of us have really good, solid sayings that can be used in more than one situation by more than one individual.
Speaker 2:Or there's a lack of creativity, because the same ones keep coming out all the time we'll go with the first thought, but I think more importantly is that three-dimensional learning offers wait, are we doing three-dimensional learning or cross-cutting concepts?
Speaker 3:I think we're yes, it's a hot mess, I think it's a little combo okay it all goes together.
Speaker 1:I'm actually going to get to both. If you'd be so kind to let me finish Shut up, okay, wow.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 1:Three-dimensional learning allows us a tool to look at education very differently and not just focus on one thing. So, as someone wise in this group has said before, that, with the knowing thinking doing, we did not diversify our portfolio and we focused in just on knowing and we put all the eggs in the knowing basket. And now there are demands in the world. The world has shifted and changed to where it is not just about knowing. There are other things that we need to do and actually, if we're being honest, while we talked about AI, ai is a partner now with us in knowing and keeps expanding what it knows and how we interact with AI. What we put into AI does matter and it's a whole different podcast. We've talked about that before, but there's somewhere that we can go to continue to gain information and have a conversation about that information. But also there are a lot of components for AI where AI is doing things for us. Now it's automated and there's a machine that's figuring this all out and making adjustments and tweaks and things that's happening as well. The area that we live in is the cross-cutting concepts thinking about these big ideas and what does this mean? Right, we need to have the philosophy of like well, what does this mean? If AI is in these two components, where are we at and where do we want to be? And playing it out, where could the future go? Where do we want the future to go? And by knowing, thinking and doing all together we can get to that spot, to where we are still determining the direction that we want to go and where we want to go in life.
Speaker 1:But the cross-cutting concepts is a muscle that we have to start to work out now. We can't just show up and think we're going to work it out. My son is very excited to play football this coming year and he's already said dad, can we start to practice? Because he knows he can't just show up the first day of tryouts and be like I'm ready to go. So I think innately we know we need to do that work and we're actually, in a lot of ways, with all the conversations about AI, where we're at right now.
Speaker 1:It feels like a warning shot, to be like hey, let's take a look at this. We know this is coming. This is a really big thing. What can we do differently? And for us in the science world, having the next generation science standards, their philosophy and the thought process, and three-dimensional learning is a great tool for us to look at, to at least start the conversation and say here's something we can do differently. And a lot of people that we've talked to have said that these STEELs and NGSS standards are the best they've seen, not because of the standards themselves, but because of the philosophies that go behind them and the supports, the three-dimensional learning the phenomenon. It's so solid. It allows students the opportunity to learn, to explore and to be curious. So continue to be curious yourselves, listeners. Thank you, as always, for tuning in and making this the number one rated podcast intergalactically.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow.
Speaker 1:Make sure to like, follow and subscribe and share with every single person you see.
Speaker 2:And apparently all the aliens.
Speaker 3:Thanks for coming back for season three.