ChangED

[Part 1] How One School District Changed Everything Through Project-Based Learning

• Andrew Kuhn & Patrice Semicek • Season 2 • Episode 31

Share episode

What did you think of the episode? Send us a text!

When Brian Riley walked into a meeting at Cheltenham School District nine years ago, he had no idea he was about to lead a complete transformation of their educational approach. "We're doing this project-based learning thing," the superintendent announced, and suddenly Brian found himself pioneering a program that didn't yet exist.

This candid conversation reveals the authentic journey of implementing project-based learning (PBL) from the ground up. Brian shares how visits to High Tech High in San Diego shaped their vision, providing teachers with immersive experiences alongside PBL experts. Rather than forcing integration of all subjects simultaneously, Cheltenham's approach allows projects to dictate which content areas take center stage at different times - creating authentic learning experiences that mirror real-world problem solving.

The most powerful testament to their success? Teachers who declare they could never return to traditional education after experiencing PBL. "If we stopped offering PBL, they would need to leave the school," Brian explains, highlighting how the approach rejuvenates both teaching practices and student engagement. While approximately 150 students (about 10% of the school population) participate across four grade levels, the program maintains demographic representation that mirrors the entire school - ensuring accessibility for all learners.

What makes this conversation particularly valuable is Brian's transparency about their mistakes and continuous refinement process. From initially attempting to launch in two grade levels simultaneously to learning that not every project needs to incorporate all subjects, these lessons provide invaluable guidance for other districts considering similar innovations. Whether you're a PBL expert or just beginning to explore alternative educational models, this episode offers practical insights on creating learning experiences that prepare students for a world that demands more than textbook knowledge.

Want to learn more about ChangED? Check out our website at: learn.mciu.org/changed

Speaker 1:

Andrew's always loud right.

Speaker 3:

Andrew no.

Speaker 2:

It's been a very loud four years.

Speaker 3:

Poor Brian. Brian's going to get it behind the scenes, although I feel like you've already seen. Oh, I think so. We are what we are.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

We are what we are. He's been a professional since 2023. Andrew, a lot of me.

Speaker 3:

What did he tell you we were going to do? I don't remember. Did he just say, show up?

Speaker 1:

This was months ago that we talked about doing this.

Speaker 3:

I'll talk about it. I've heard from a few people. They're like Andrew just says, show up and we show up and I don't know Everything Brian says is new to me, so I'll be intrigued.

Speaker 4:

Here we go.

Speaker 2:

Welcome back to Change Ed. Changed, changed Ed. We are here because the fans demanded and our listeners required that we continue podcasting, because we are the number one rated education podcast in all of Pennsylvania. I'm your host, andrew Kuhn. Facts that's what I said. Education consultant for Montgomery County Intermediate Unit.

Speaker 3:

And here with me is Patrice Sematick, also an education consultant at Montgomery County Intermediate Unit. And here with me is Patrice Sematick, also an education consultant at a Montgomery County Intermediate Unit.

Speaker 4:

And Tony Marabito. I will be an educational consultant as well. Today from Carbon Lehigh Intermediate.

Speaker 3:

Unit. It changed. It changed again, Tony it is ever changing.

Speaker 2:

It's a very fluid, tidal working situation. I feel like it's a bit at this point what kinds of things do they just let?

Speaker 3:

just let you do whatever at Carp and Lehigh.

Speaker 4:

Correct Whatever's best for kids. There it is.

Speaker 3:

There it is.

Speaker 2:

Good job Doing all the hard things for kids. Please introduce our guest before he leaves. Our guest is a person that we've known, teresa and myself, for quite some time. Does a lot of work in Montgomery County, at a district in Montgomery County, but we've been able to work with them in a lot of work in Montgomery County, at a district in Montgomery County, but we've been able to work with them in a lot of accounts and he has actually is the single person behind the inspiration of our greatness.

Speaker 3:

Wow, no, no, I mean, I'm not disputing it, but that's a big, that's a big title. I hope you can.

Speaker 4:

So if our podcast fails, we can help.

Speaker 3:

I'm glad I'm closest to the door.

Speaker 2:

Brian Riley, welcome to the show. Thank you for coming on. How are you? I'm doing well. Thank you very much for having me. We are super thrilled that you're here. Brian, would you please introduce yourself to the ChangeEd Nation, which, again, we are global, so you know you could say hi to anybody who might live overseas that you'd like to. You know, give a shout out to.

Speaker 1:

And I can use any language I want.

Speaker 3:

Yes, you certainly can.

Speaker 1:

I'll stick with English, since that's the only one I know. So I'm Brian Riley. I am the Director of Curriculum and Instruction for STEM as of today for Cheltenham School District. As of Tuesday, I'll be the Director of Teaching and Learning for Cheltenham School District.

Speaker 3:

Oh, new position or new title.

Speaker 1:

New title, new responsibilities.

Speaker 3:

More responsibilities. See how his titles are real.

Speaker 2:

Tony, he has real titles Brian's like the master of everything You're actually a signed title.

Speaker 4:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

You've been at Cheltenham for a while, right, I'm in my ninth year right now. Cheltenham is doing really incredible work when it comes to project-based learning and other things, but really incredible work when it comes to project-based learning and other things. But we'd love to hear more from you about what that looks like, because I imagine that maybe it was existing before you showed up and in your tenure. But if not, what does that process look like, or where is it at now, and then maybe we can back up.

Speaker 3:

You want to go forward and then backwards, or do you want to hear however you want to?

Speaker 1:

go, it's your show. I think the origin story is probably easiest to tell. We'll. However you want, it's your show. I think the origin story is probably, oh yeah, easiest. Yeah, we'll just go forward from there. That sounds good, and so pbl did not exist in cheltenham before I got there. And just to be clear, we're talking about project-based learning not problem-based learning, in this case good distinction.

Speaker 1:

Yep, and so I showed up. I had a colleague of mine who started right around the same time. We were invited to a meeting by the superintendent at the time and said we're doing this thing, why don't you come to the meeting? And then I left the meeting and apparently my colleague and I were the two that were now running project-based learning for the district which did not exist, that's what I call a magic trick right there. I never went to another meeting after that, and now you have a new title.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, exactly, and so he and I had been working on PBL, for, you know, from the beginning free my time in district there were a group of teachers that went out to visit high tech high in San Diego with the superintendent to see what project based learning looks like in a school that's completely committed to PBL. That's the only model they use. They are adjacent to the San Diego unified school district. They talk about the mission of why they do PBL, which is a different reason why we do PBL, and so they offer that as a school for students who are looking for that as their only experience. We offer it for students who don't necessarily see traditional education as their path forward, and so we simply wanted to create an opportunity for students who learn differently, also selected, and so we simply wanted to create an opportunity for students who learn differently All self-selected, and so we didn't.

Speaker 1:

We didn't reach out to students to say that you should be part of PBL. We did have to do that with teachers, though, and so to open that up, to make sure we had teachers in the classrooms, we started with just kind of putting an advertisement out there to say we're going to do this project-based learning thing. Are you interested and they kind of went through an interview of sorts. They were all teachers who were already in the district. I'm skipping some details here, but specifically at our high school, the goal initially was to start PBL in grades 9 and 10. And so we were looking for a total of seven teachers, three per grade level and then one special ed teacher, because our project-based learning is designed around just three content areas, so it's the idea of integrating science, social studies and English.

Speaker 3:

Nice.

Speaker 1:

And then, knowing that we didn't want to exclude students who had GIAPs, we didn't want to exclude students who had IAPs, so we wanted to make sure we had a special ed teacher as part of the team as well. As we were doing the planning and thinking about all the work that we had to do to launch this, we decided fairly quickly that launching it with two grades was a mistake that we didn't want to make, and so we backed up and decided to start with just ninth grade.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it's a lot.

Speaker 1:

It's a lot, yeah, especially for 10th graders who started ninth grade. Our high school was a 9 through 12 experience, so we didn't want 10th graders who started as 9th grade in one model and then all of a sudden we're trying to bring them into a different model.

Speaker 1:

Makes sense, was funded through a grant that we got through the Avalon Foundation. There were a number of things that we utilized the funding for, primarily to get people out to California and see High Tech High and interact with the teachers there. So all of our teachers were able to embed with counterparts at High Tech High on multiple occasions.

Speaker 3:

That's amazing. That's project-based learning for adults, Exactly exactly.

Speaker 1:

And the experiences were phenomenal there, and it's one of those things when you get to high tech high and you see not the structure, it's not about the facility there, it's not about technology. So high tech high is a bit of a misnomer. They're fairly low tech. It's really up to the teachers, but the intention was that it was going to be a highly technical institution and it wasn't that, or isn't that? So that experience allowed our teachers to see how students are reacting to that model. There were structures a little bit different than ours, but we learned a lot from how the things that they're doing in terms of they have partnerships, so teachers pair up with another.

Speaker 1:

We set ours up to be a trio. We made a lot of mistakes in our planning. We made mistakes in our first eight years. We have made mistakes. One of the things we've taken away from a high tech guy is they're constantly changing what they do and how they define PBL, and so we're okay to recognize that you can do something different or more aligned to your kids Exactly it's always about the experiences that we're okay to recognize that you can do something different.

Speaker 1:

Or more aligned to your kids. Exactly, it's always about the experiences that we're designing for students.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And I'll use the word experience a lot because that's how I think about what we're trying to do now. Whether it's PBL or otherwise. Our teachers have to do lesson planning, we do curriculum design. To me, we're all working on designing the learning experience for students.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

No matter what else you call it yeah.

Speaker 2:

A lot of people would say that being on this show is an experience. Could you agree with that? So far, so good.

Speaker 3:

We didn't say it had to be a good experience.

Speaker 2:

It was. You have had an experience.

Speaker 1:

I have and I'll continue to have that experience. I have had an experience I have and I'll continue to have that experience.

Speaker 3:

I'm still here, Thank you.

Speaker 1:

Brian for not running. I'm pretty quick too, but I'm still here.

Speaker 3:

None of us are stopping you.

Speaker 1:

I noticed that You're all on the other side of the table.

Speaker 3:

It's so you don't have to turn your head.

Speaker 2:

It's a directional thing, we're not trying to be mean Part of the experience, if you will.

Speaker 3:

Part of the experience, if you will, I appreciate it and this way I don't have to look at Andrew, that's really why so you say that? For you. It's your pleasure.

Speaker 2:

I get all the joy.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, Eye contact sir, anyway, why is?

Speaker 1:

the room. So dark.

Speaker 4:

It's ambiance, that's right.

Speaker 3:

Everyone has their own spotlight. I guess, I don't know.

Speaker 4:

It's better than fluorescence. Can I continue the podcast now, Andrew?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, but did you finish your thought?

Speaker 1:

I interrupted you with experience. My thoughts never end.

Speaker 4:

So interrupt away. I'm already hooked with this high tech high. I have never heard of it before, so this is awesome and new to me. So can you walk me through the day of a student in ninth grade in this program at your school, at our school? Yes, at your school.

Speaker 1:

So our students start in PBL. One of the changes that has happened at our school is we were a full year course based on periods. We're now block scheduled, so they're semester based, but we didn't change PBL.

Speaker 3:

So they're still full year, they're still full year.

Speaker 1:

They're still full year, and so that adds some complication. We are a bit of a headache for our principal in terms of scheduling, I'm sure For a number of reasons, that being one of them, and so our students start their day in PBL, and it's a block of time. We offer a lot of flexibility for our teachers, and so when students are scheduled to go to a biology class, followed by a social studies class, followed by lunch and then English, our students go to PBL and the teachers decide what content are they getting and when, and so it might be there may be some crossover where they're learning English and social studies together and they're not learning biology that day, and then biology just has a heavier load at another point in the year. So it's really driven by the projects, because the projects don't have to include all three content areas all the time. Teachers tried that.

Speaker 1:

That was one of the mistakes we learned early on, and it wasn't something that we necessarily said, but the teachers wanted it to the students to have that experience where this idea of siloed education was obliterated, and it's really hard to do, and so what we started to do was back up and think about what makes sense for the project in terms of achieving the goal of the project. And if that means you're only going to use two content areas, then do that. And what essentially what happens is and we're currently in a project in ninth grade where the English and social studies are driving the work and the biology teacher is sort of the organizer and support for that work and so that teacher doesn't just like walk away and take off.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Right. In this case, she just has a different role in helping the students.

Speaker 3:

But they're like the epitome of a team Like.

Speaker 1:

Exactly.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, wow, yes.

Speaker 1:

And how many students do you have in this Total? We are at about 150 this year, and that's across four grades, though, so it's not not a huge number. Our high school has about 1400 students in it, so it's a little little more than 10 of our population. Kind of talk through demographics just so everyone gets a better picture in terms of who's in this, because a lot of times we'll talk about something like this as a specialized program, and so only students who are at the AP level or gifted students who are like how do I get into this?

Speaker 1:

Ours is not like that. It's open enrollment. Essentially it's again student self-selection. So anybody is welcome to be in PBL and everyone's represented in PBL. So the demographic of PBL looks a lot like the demographic of the high school.

Speaker 3:

That's so important.

Speaker 2:

What are you hearing or what feedback are you getting from? Let's start with students, the students who've gone through the part you've had for eight years now. So, but imagine there have been students who have gone through four years of PBL or have worked through the system at this point. I know you started with ninth grade and then you kind of probably were adding, but at this point you probably had students that have gone through that. What are you hearing from them about this experience and what it means to them?

Speaker 1:

That's a difficult question because we hear different things the students in the experience, what I've heard and I hear this from teachers as well I'll start with teachers first, even though you asked about students, so sorry for breaking protocol.

Speaker 3:

You, do you.

Speaker 4:

You don't have to listen to Andrew ever. No one else does. You don't have to listen to Andrew ever.

Speaker 2:

No one else does.

Speaker 1:

So our teachers? I've had teachers say to me that if we stopped offering PBL, they would need to leave the school and go find a job where they can do PBL.

Speaker 1:

They can't go back to the traditional model of education because of the benefits for both them and students, and it's something that I think we neglect a lot in terms of the teacher experience, and PBL allows them to be very fresh in terms of what they're doing year to year, not to say we don't repeat projects, but we're constantly changing them. Nsda is a good example of we're looking for a new curriculum. We're hearing a lot of good things at NSDA around how we can do science differently, especially with phenomena based in three-dimensional teaching and learning. Teachers in pbl, I think, will embrace these changes as it relates to science, and I know teachers outside of pbl are just saying I just need my old textbook, right?

Speaker 1:

right and I'm going to teach from this book, like I always have and so where did my standards go? Exactly chem. Well, I remember the days when we didn't have standards.

Speaker 3:

What are those days Right right?

Speaker 1:

right and so this is a big shift and it's been a long time coming. Pbl teachers are primed for it. Yeah, they're already.

Speaker 3:

They have the mindset down Essentially doing it, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

When we think about like three dimensions, like PBL is multidimensional. Yeah, right, yeah, without a doubt, and so, from a student perspective, though we're hearing similar things that it's such a different thing to the point that they have to have classes outside of PBL. We don't offer math in PBL at all. I don't have a good reason why.

Speaker 3:

Because you're doing math and science and I would assume, some projects.

Speaker 1:

Right, I'll back up a second, because what I really like about PBL is not from a leadership role, but it allows me to get into classrooms and work with students directly, because there are certain things and maybe skills that I have that haven't necessarily translated to our teachers yet. So, for example, our students are building projects in our wood shop right now, and that's a skill that I have, and so I come in and I can work with them hand in hand when the teachers are like, while you're doing that, we've got to do these other things with these other students, and so it's great to have one more person that just can help out.

Speaker 3:

And that gets you in with kids again. Exactly, that's the best part.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so I encourage like that, those kinds of projects a lot so that I can be in there with them, yeah yeah, At the same time, I can also. I mean, most of what I do when I was a former math teacher is bring the math into it when it makes sense, which is the beauty of project-based learning is that we insert the content where it's necessary to achieve the outcome of the project.

Speaker 3:

I love it.

Speaker 2:

And I think what you said is crucial, that with project-based learning you can wait for your moment, you don't have to force the moment, you don't have to say, well, here's how it connects you, kind of wait, you're waiting for that window, which is actually a lot of ways going to make the connection to steals in NGSS. That that's also a practice where we're looking to shift how we're teaching, even in science. They're just making fun of me, they're not. You're spot on, I understand, yeah, but you're spot on, I understand, yeah, oh, you're enjoying it. You're okay Wacky on the inside. I misread the room, but I'm wondering, actually, I know I'm telling, but I guess I'm going to ask do you see that connection as well? That is, steel is kind of a similar rollout to what you're experiencing project-based learning and if so, is it informing you in that process at all? Yes, and yes, we. And if so, is it informing you in that process at all?

Speaker 1:

Yes, and, yes, we see a lot of evidence of STEELs, not to say STEELs I don't want to confuse STEELs and GSS and so we just think about three dimensions science and engineering practices, cross-cutting concepts. They're not isolated to science instruction, and so why are they not part of every set of standards? We have math practices, we have science and engineering practices. They align pretty closely and so we have practices. We employ those all throughout project-based learning, and so our shift to project-based learning is sort of the only area that we started to look forward to what Steele's is asking of our teachers. We were doing it even without looking at NGSS. Those things just came naturally as part of what we believed project-based learning should include for students.

Speaker 2:

All right, listener, at this point you're wondering how is it that we are wrapping up this session and we're clearly not done the conversation? If I was a listener I'd be like what's going on? They promised me 15-ish minute podcast. We're at that time it's about to wrap up, but we're clearly not done the conversation, so unbeknownst to our guests. Because usually we can tell our guests oh, this will be a two-parter, and they know that, and we get to record two openings and two closings. This is going to be a surprise for brian a surprise for brian and the listeners and surprise he didn't know what's happening.

Speaker 2:

Aren't they lucky? Now we'll know if if Brian listened to his own podcast or not.

Speaker 3:

Yes, now we'll know.

Speaker 2:

We're on to you, Brian. This is our project-based learning. We're looking for some qualitative data.

Speaker 3:

And formal assessment.

Speaker 2:

If you listen, be sure to come back next week so you can hear part two of our conversation with Brian. Until then, make sure you like and follow this podcast and send it to everyone you know who might have ever heard of Project Based Learning.

Speaker 3:

Wow, that's a lot of people. Wait, we're recording the ending.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, we're recording the ending right now.

Speaker 3:

And then we're going to record that opening for the other one. Yeah, yeah, okay.