ChangED
ChangED is an educator based podcast for Pennsylvania teachers to learn more about the PA STEELS Standards and science in general. It is hosted by Andrew Kuhn and Patrice Semicek.
ChangED
Breaking the Mold: One Districts Journey to Inquiry-Based Learning- Part 2
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What if reimagining how we ask questions could transform the education system? Join us as we continue our thought-provoking conversation with Dr. Sean Gardiner, as we explore the transformative potential of inquiry-based learning. Together, we highlight the importance of building trust and nurturing relationships as we guide educational districts through change, promoting perseverance and grit in students. We invite you to join us as we celebrate the power of community, shared experiences, and the collaborative effort needed to cultivate dynamic thinkers ready to face future challenges.
Want to send us a show idea or just say hi? Email us at: thechangedpodcast@gmail.com!
welcome back to change and change it your favorite podcast to tune into when there's absolutely nothing else to listen to on your phone. I am your number one rated podcast host and it's not true education consultant from montgomery county intermediate unit.
Speaker 2Here with me is patrice samachek and I'm also from the montgomery county intermediate unit and I am an education consultant she dropped the all people is just education for patrice it's so hard to stop saying it that way, but I will acquiesce, like always, and admit that you were right. Oh my god, I can't believe. I said that out loud and recorded everyone.
Speaker 1Save this one as your number one favorite podcast where we heard this recorded. After lots of consideration and heated deliberation, we have reluctantly decided to bring back dr sean gardner to the show. Continued the conversation the change ed nation demands more answers and insight, and we are here to meet the demands of the people.
Speaker 2Oh wow, that's what we do it felt good when you're pointing your finger at me while you were saying that I.
Speaker 1I mean, I was passionate, very authoritative, yeah, yeah, yeah, all right, no more niceties, let's get right to it. One of the things we talk a lot about with our work with Steeles is within the three dimensions. There's knowing, thinking and doing is within the three dimensions.
Speaker 1There's knowing, thinking and doing, and knowing was really how we were raised in an educational environment where you had to know the answer, you had to have the right answer, but also then because that was modeled in a lot of ways. That's where we all end up, as even in society. So we talk about it. You know, if we were to have a conversation about football and I, you know, I caught it. Well, you know what time is it? Oh, what's that called? Sportsball Actually, yeah, never mind I'm going to go to basketball.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 1Because I actually don't know.
Speaker 3I was like you got to give me a little bit more. So, basketball, when you start the game.
Speaker 2Yeah, tip off, tip off.
Speaker 1I couldn't think of it. I couldn't think of it. I was going to say, when they throw the ball, I knew that for football kickoff yeah, that's why I jumped off. I knew that one too. So I didn't know kickoff. But for most people, if I don't know the basic rules of basketball, I probably don't know basketball. I don't understand what I'm talking about, when really, I'm like I knew what you did, I knew what was happening, I just had to and we got together. So the point is, is that creating a space where we can have those conversations where I don't have to know everything to actually have an idea of what I'm talking about?
Speaker 1So, in your example, you have a philosophy on how that works, but wanting to create a space where we could that. Again, going back to collaboration where we can have a collective conversation not saying that I'm absolutely right, like give me your thought process, what are you thinking about that? And I think that is a small but huge paradigm shift, mighty change. Yeah, a mighty, mighty change, because now as you're saying it's a domino effect, right?
Speaker 2It's a domino effect because, just as you were saying, the buy-in is there. Even if you don't agree with it, you're still going to do it because you know that you've had conversations and there's a massive trust in the system and the process and the people. Because of the consistency, because, when it comes down to it, a lot of us just want to be heard like you said and if I said my piece and we made a decision collectively, I've said what I've needed to say.
Speaker 3We've moved on like it feels much more manageable to tackle so it's quite an interesting like anderson, small but like mighty shift yeah and think the shift and we're trying to model for our teachers and then for our students is reframing things into opportunities instead of obstacles. So if I can't do this, what's my opportunity then to figure out a different way to do it?
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 3And that's what we want our students to be able to do to be flexible and agile thinkers when they leave K through 12, of, really, instead of getting frustrated well, you get frustrated, we all get frustrated but then removing that emotion, and I had this conversation with our director of human resources yesterday. We were talking about leadership. We talk a lot about that as well in our district, like what does it mean to be leaders?
Speaker 2I absolutely adore your human resources Amazing. They stole her from us. Absolutely amazing, it's Caitlin. Yeah, absolutely amazing.
Speaker 3Your team is like Our team is all stars. But again, how many places do you have curriculum and instruction, talking with the director of human resources around leadership, and what does leadership look like? And what does change theory look like? And how do we support teachers, principals Because at the end of the day, we have very little contact with students, but the ones that do, and it gets back to the intentionality we want to model for them what that looks like. And when you do that, then it becomes pervasive throughout the district and you have to prove yourself. That's a reality too. When challenging times come, you have to say I'm here with you, side by side, I'm not going to disappear.
Speaker 3What do you need to remove that obstacle? Is it funding? We have a relationship with our business manager, who's sole focus not sole, but one of his main areas of focus is how do I support education in our district, and he's realistic with that and it's fantastic. But again, it's about supporting people to show them and then for our teachers to show our students. How do we then remove obstacles? How do you get frustrated and persevere? You know that grit. You think, angela Duckworth, like we can talk about it day in and day out, but unless you're doing inquiry-based learning to put students in a position where they have to practice. Yes, that's so true, patrice. I love how you use the word practice, because that's what it is.
Speaker 2K through 12 is practice for the super In a super safe space for when you're an adult. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's what I've been saying forever, right.
Speaker 3Like we want students to push. We want students to push back a little bit and say, how come this? But if we're not using an inquiry-based based approach, they just don't get the opportunity. They just march through school, playing school year after year, and then they get into the real world and they're like wait a second.
Speaker 2I have choices, I have choices, and then I don't even know what to do with it.
Speaker 2And then I don't have the productive struggle to be successful, to make the appropriate choice. I see that a lot in the gifted work that we're doing, there's a lot of gifted kids that don't have our students who tend to struggle more academically to be extremely successful. The amount of success that our students who we're always targeting in terms of like reading and math and all of that, are actually super great problem solvers because they've been solving problems their whole lives to try and get to a point where they can be successful, and then I also see it, as for our gifted and advanced learner, an opportunity to break out of that.
Speaker 2I need to get the A. I have to know all of the facts to be able to get the A, and then it gives them the safe space to have that struggle so that when they get to a point where school isn't easy anymore, they can actually be successful, because a lot of our gifted and advanced kids are going to college and dropping out because they have not had to struggle before.
Speaker 2So by creating a culture where it's encouraged okay and encouraged to ask questions and to push back and to think deeper is I want to move.
Speaker 3Yeah Well, and you make me, you make me think of a book from a few years ago now, dan Coyle the Talent Code.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 3And just how riveting that book is and this idea of students who are gifted high intelligence and what does their success rate look like down the road. And it's an indictment of our system.
Speaker 3It's staggering that we are not putting students in a position across the board to make tough choices, to have challenging situations, to work together, to collaborate, to look at a support system. There's a lot of research in psychology. We are successful because of our support system, not necessarily because of ourselves. But how often do we allow students that opportunity to have a support system in class and in school?
Speaker 2Those gifted and advanced kids don't have it because they haven't needed it.
Speaker 3They haven't, but that's our fault for not putting that. And it's redefining what need looks like through inquiry-based learning, through project-based learning and success.
Speaker 2It's not a success just to get an, a Right. That's where I think we need to keep coming back to. And now I'm getting all like look, I'm getting goose bumpy, like I feel so strongly about yeah as a reformed, gifted kid, like I didn't have that, and so it's yeah, I'm trying to change the world.
Speaker 3so if you want to join, no, no, I love it well, and you think about our eighth grade project that both of you are familiar with. That has just exploded.
Speaker 3It's so amazing like and again, when you talk about thinking about the, you know you called it the infinite game really starting small, starting manageable in year one we're at about 10 years now in this project but starting in the science classes, hands-on aquaponics, partnership with Riverbend, and then getting students so excited about it and talking about it that other teachers approach the science teacher and say what are you doing in science class that they are so intrigued and so excited about this? So now we fast forward 10 years. Our social studies does Aqua Civics, where they have a Congress. They have a House and a Senate with elected representatives. They have a day where students have to register to vote. If they don't register they're not allowed to vote. They get the little I voted sticker. They talk about representation within classes. In the absence of someone, another class gets that seat so they have more of a voice. They resumes specific to two jobs that those students want Department head. So putting students in leadership positions, sprints with scrum boards within their science class, making the food at the end of it and actually providing that like a catering business for teachers and a healthy competition. So it's these things that you have students who want to do this or are eager to do this. It's how do we put them in a position?
Speaker 3Our health class this past year phenomenal Two teachers, traditional unit on health and safety and wellness. But they reframed it. They started with the project. So what does success look like? And they said you'll have two choices. Really, it was three choices because they could do anything else they wanted, but two choices. You can do a YouTube video, or you could do a podcast or you could do anything else you wanted. And we want you to summarize the learning over the next two weeks.
Speaker 2And that was it.
Speaker 3That was it and you can imagine the creativity that these students did, the amount of time they spent. They didn't need 10 questions, they didn't need a rubric Like just summarize the essential learning that you felt like resonated with you the most and that hit every single thing. And with that lens to start, that's when you get you know at a little different. It doesn't have to be this huge project. When you talk about inquiry-based learning, you can imagine walking into that classroom, the students knowing that they're going to create something. And then you think back to the SAMR model. You know how do we get students moving forward on that? Students are automatically going to ask more questions during that class because they're trying to internalize it, to produce something at the end that is creative, that is something they're interested in doing. But it's a small but important intentional move by those two teachers and it turned out fantastic, absolutely fantastic.
Speaker 1What I was thinking about when it comes to assessment and you mentioned formative assessment that that's happening regularly, so that we know where our students are at. There are no surprises or guessing when it comes to it. What I was hearing, even in this example that you were giving, is how can we simplify it to show me evidence of learning and show me evidence of reflection.
Speaker 1I need to know that you're growing as a person, not that you memorized this specific thing. Show me. I want to see the journey so I can know that you're on this path and that you're at least moving in some direction with us, so that no one's left behind that we have everybody in that. Sean, I really am excited and actually dreading giving you the second to last final thought, because I feel like you've dropped a lot of really amazing things and I have I know where I'm going and he's clearly not a listener.
Speaker 2So he final thought, because I feel like you've dropped a lot of really amazing things and I I have, I know where. I'm clearly not a listener, so he knows that you're giving him the second to last thought for a reason. Yeah, I can't even say this unique gift, you know? Yes, it's literally every episode.
The Power of Inquiry-Based Learning
Speaker 1Yes, yeah, so, sir.
Speaker 3Second to last final thought for today's show, I think, when you think about inquiry-based learning, you think about supporting people just a few key terms you want to keep in mind and keep on your radar feeling valued and heard, intentionality, collaboration and conversation. And I think if you use all of those in your approach to everything you do and you approach everything with curiosity, you're going to model that for everyone you interact with. They're going to see that that is a recipe for success. You'll build a team that believes in that and then that team will then impact the students and then the students will start doing that as well and then, at the end of their journey with us, they'll have options when they get out of school and they'll be dynamic, agile thinkers that can tackle anything that comes in front of them with confidence.
Speaker 2I don't think you need to say another thing.
Speaker 1But I will. Exclamation point done, but I will, of course, you will. Number one I hated having you on the show because you're excellent.
Speaker 2Terrible.
Speaker 1You overshadowed me. It was amazing. I loved every minute of it. Thank you for never coming on again, you could start wearing bow ties, that'd be even better.
Speaker 1Let me see here.
Speaker 1Well, I really appreciated so many things of what you shared, most importantly, that it is a bigger system, it is a group of individuals, it's not just one individual, it's a lot of us who line up to actually get to that point where success there are so many people at play and so many supporting cast members that help each individual student to find and meet success.
Speaker 1Things that really resonated with me is, first and foremost I actually heard this one time when we were visiting the flux space. They had a fascinating video three minute video that they put on, and the whole thought process behind the video was sometimes you have to slow down to be able to go faster, and it sounds like that's what exactly what's happened is that your district slowed down and we said what matters, what's most important, and then let's build it from there with that central focus point. Also with that, for me, is we still have to pay attention to the details. So I heard you saying a lot that kind of this macro view, which I think is so important. But something that I've seen modeled through you when we were doing all of our tours, prepping and planning and getting ready for the expo was that you were very present and people knew that you were going to follow through.
Speaker 3There was no question Like if.
Speaker 1I talked to Sean Gardner. He's going to get back to me, Even though, as the mayor of King of Prussia, you were talking to everyone shaking hands and kissing babies.
Speaker 2I know he was literally like I don't know students. I'm like I think you knew every name of every student.
Speaker 3We walked by.
Speaker 1And people were coming up and like oh, Dr Gardner, I don't know how knew every kid hey and how's the flute?
Speaker 2I was like what? Yeah?
Speaker 1dr gardner, I got accepted to wisconsin. You're like that's awesome. I knew you'd get in and you, like, knew everything I'm like what's happening?
Speaker 1yeah, and it was amazing. So thank you. So you model that, but thank you because you show the value in people. You care about people that's we're literally in the people business, but you pay attention to those details which lets them know that that you know you are who you say you are, that you're very present. So it's this interesting balance in life of, again, how can we be micro-focused but also detail present and oriented and then allow all of us to help fill in, kind of the in-between. And the last thing, the biggest takeaway I had was what I was hearing from you and this is a ChangeEd copyrighted saying I was hearing that inquiry-based learning can help break down silos.
Speaker 3Yes absolutely.
Speaker 1Andrew Kuhn quote.
Speaker 2That was not an Andrew Kuhn quote. That was a Sean Gardner quote.
Speaker 1No, no, no, I fixed everything he said. I made it sound good, oh my God.
Speaker 3He wordsmithed it a little bit, did he? Yes, fixed everything he said. It made it sound good. Oh my God, he wordsmithed it a little bit.
Speaker 1Did he?
Speaker 2Did he, I actually don't know that's possible, oh my gosh, Sean, we have loved having you on the show.
Speaker 1We'd love to have you back. It was really. It was a treat. There's so much to talk about.
Speaker 2I would love to do an interview with Sean and the real Andrew Kuhn, and not you really cool podcast. He's an imposter.
Speaker 1That's why he had to have the doctor in front of his name, so thank you so much, sean. We we are super excited to. You're a fantastic partner for us and so many levels. Upper Marion area school district is just as amazing. We love collaborating and working with with all of you, so thank you for coming on the show and for your support of all the work that we do collectively.
Support Groups and Fan Clubs
Speaker 3Yeah, Thank you for this opportunity. And just a quick plug start listening to this podcast all the time. If you get a chance, you will get certain things every single time to move you forward. Usually little things you can use against Andrew.
Speaker 1There's a fan club. You can join it If you like. Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 2What did Tony and I call it? We called it something.
Speaker 1Wawa without Andrew.
Speaker 2Was it without Andrew? I don't know. I have so many support groups now, I don't know.