Breaking the Mold: One Districts Journey to Inquiry-Based Learning- Part 1

Ever wondered how to shift from traditional teaching models to an inquiry-based learning approach?  Dr. Sean Gardiner, the inspiring Director of STEM Education for the Upper Merion Area School District, shares the key strategies as we explore the intricacies of this educational transformation. Through humorous and engaging conversations, we explore how his leadership paves the way for future leaders in a diverse educational landscape.

About this weeks guest:
Dr. Sean Gardiner has been a leader in the field of STEM Education in the greater Philadelphia area for over 15 years. Working with teachers, administrators, School Districts, and local community partners, Dr. Gardiner has led a variety of initiatives aimed at transforming the STEM landscape in k - 12 educational spaces. A primary focus of his work has been addressing systems that have perpetuated the systemic underrepresentation of students from the BIPOC community in STEM careers. Dr. Gardiner earned his Undergraduate degree from Towson University, his Master's degree in Communication Sciences from the University of Connecticut and his Doctorate in Educational Leadership from Widener University. He is currently the Director of Curriculum and Instruction for STEM Education in the Upper Merion Area School District. 

Want to send us a show idea or just say hi?  Email us at: thechangedpodcast@gmail.com! 

Transcript

Education Podcast Guest Introduction and Discourse

Andrew Kuhn 0:00

we'll do an intro, yeah, okay hold on to your ears, all right welcome back to change ed change it the number one education podcast in everywhere everywhere. Wow, yeah, well, I'm so descriptive I'm actually distracted because I think we have such an awesome show. I'm so excited for our guest who we have. He is undoubtedly this is what I call the mayor of King of Russia, well known to all, but also a huge contributor to the show, not just because of this podcast, but, I would say, in general, a very good thought partner for us a big supporter.

Andrew Kuhn 0:46

I'd say we're co-groupies, we're a groupie for this individual For him, yeah. And he's a groupie for us oh, at least me. I don't know about you, but he's a big fan of mine.

Sean Gardner 0:56

Absolutely for both. Thank you, absolutely.

Patrice Semicek 0:59

You see how I just sit here. I'm like a battered woman now.

Andrew Kuhn 1:07

Oh, just sit here. I'm like a battered woman now. Oh man, here we go. So we would like to welcome to the show Dr Sean Gardner. Welcome, sir, thank you. Do you mind just introducing yourself to ChangeEd Nation and maybe telling a little bit about your background, please?

Sean Gardner 1:15

Yes, thank you again for having me on this amazing podcast. My name is Dr Sean Gardner. I'm the Director of STEM Education for the Upper Marion Area School District, which is located in King of Prussia, pennsylvania. We split King of Prussia, wayne Bridgeport, and West Conchahokan is our school district. Just an amazing team that I work with across all of our central office, our superintendent, assistant superintendent, school board, our principals, teachers and students. I was a high school math teacher for a number of years and then transitioned to the central office about 16 years ago, so I've been here for a while and enjoyed the journey and just love working with people like yourselves to move education forward and do this paradigm shift to really support students to be leaders for tomorrow.

Andrew Kuhn 2:04

And for our listeners who might not be from the area, this is a pretty large geographic area that you just described and you have a lot of different communities that all come together, so there are lots of different aspects and things to consider and be able to support, and you have a wide variety of students that come in that are part of the district.

Sean Gardner 2:24

Yeah, we're fortunate to be one of the most diverse school districts in our area. In the greater suburban Philadelphia area. We are currently also at 48% students who identify as economically disadvantaged. We have over 60 languages spoken in our district and we have roughly about 4,000 students within the district. So we are diverse socioeconomic-wise, we're diverse ethnicity-wise and we just have a fantastic community that really supports education in any way they can.

Andrew Kuhn 2:54

Wow, you know. The one other thing I want to say, Sean, as we're getting started, is and I truly mean this I appreciate so much that you do listen to our podcast, and here's what I love Our goal is always that people can have discourse about it.

Andrew Kuhn 3:10

We want them to have conversations, not that they have to agree with what's being said, but we want it to start the conversation and that's my favorite part specifically with you, like I'll have people come up to me like, oh, listen to your podcast, it's great. And I'm like oh. I was hoping you were going to say like you know, something you know that we can get into it.

Andrew Kuhn 3:26

But you always come back with specific conversation parts or like, wow, I really appreciated this, it kind of impacted me here or it changed my thinking, or I'm considering this and we can enter into a dialogue, which, again, is the goal. So that's like such a big part for us. We're like yes, let's have you know, I, we want people to like oh man, andrew, you're amazing.

Patrice Semicek 3:46

I don't know why you did with your house. You see how it always goes there. It always goes there.

Andrew Kuhn 3:52

Send help Like twice if you're in danger. Oh wait I guess no one can see you. I'm blinking vigorously.

Patrice Semicek 4:02

We didn't introduce ourselves, but I feel like by at this point, people know who we are oh yeah, that is a really funny part to each one is it?

Sean Gardner 4:09

where? Yeah, because you always introduce yourself as part of the iu and everything and then kicks over and you're like I thought we weren't doing that anymore oh yeah, like I thought what, what's?

Patrice Semicek 4:18

and then you say it, and then you're like fine story of my life, always, whatever Andrew wants.

Andrew Kuhn 4:25

And it's literally. You would think it was like every time. She's like we're not doing it. Yeah, we're doing it, we're not doing it, we're doing it, and then I just launch into it.

Sean Gardner 4:31

Just my two cents on it, okay, go.

Andrew Kuhn 4:34

I am your favorite host. Everyone is dying to listen to my words of wisdom. No one ever.

Sean Gardner 4:40

Amber.

Andrew Kuhn 4:41

Kuhn, education consultant from Montgomery County Intermediate Unit, and here with me is.

Patrice Semicek 4:47

I'm Patrice Amatek, also from the Montgomery County Intermediate Unit and still an educational consultant. For the millionth time. What are you on episode 900 now? And people don't know.

Andrew Kuhn 4:56

Well, what's interesting is that I'm an education consultant and you're an education.

Patrice Semicek 5:00

Because you don't say it right. You don't say it right.

Andrew Kuhn 5:03

The L. I miss it Because you don't say it. Right, you don't say it right the L.

Patrice Semicek 5:04

I miss it. I feel like it's supposed to. Yeah, Am I saying it wrong? Because I'm going to be really mad if I'm saying it wrong?

Andrew Kuhn 5:11

Yes, okay Anyway.

Sean Gardner 5:13

Dr Gaffney, dr Schwab, can you come in? Come in.

Patrice Semicek 5:19

Let's clarify for us what is the actual title. They choose not to weigh in.

Andrew Kuhn 5:21

They're very smart in that way, it's about to turn into a fight club, yeah.

Patrice Semicek 5:26

Maybe this should be one of our openings. Last time we did an opening for a PD, we got into a fight. Long story short we got into a fight about whether or not Halloween music is a genre and we used it as an icebreaker for a month.

Sean Gardner 5:38

Wow and a lot of people agree that.

Patrice Semicek 5:41

I am right they agree with me that it is not a genre, it is not.

Sean Gardner 5:46

What are your thoughts? I think my only concern would be I'm picturing like chairs being thrown, people getting passionate about it. I mean, there was some yelling Like just going sideways In here, there was some yelling.

Andrew Kuhn 5:54

We brought in Alexa.

Patrice Semicek 5:56

It was a. Thing.

Sean Gardner 5:57

Every.

Patrice Semicek 5:57

PD, it turns into something. There were people that I was like pointing at it. I got mad.

Sean Gardner 6:01

Yeah.

Patrice Semicek 6:02

In a PD. I'd never seen them before. I'm like you're wrong. Yeah, it was great.

Sean Gardner 6:05

It was great my Irish side came out Pulling a pair like punches their own.

Andrew Kuhn 6:10

Yeah, actually some of the best, best ones for that specific question. It would go on all day, all day. Like you walk by and be like you. Like wrote this song, literally I.

Patrice Semicek 6:21

Googled. Someone was like Thriller is a Halloween song. I was like, bro, it came out in May. You're wrong. It wasn't designed for Halloween.

Sean Gardner 6:26

Right.

Patrice Semicek 6:27

And then they're like listing entire oh, I got into it Entire soundtracks, hocus.

Andrew Kuhn 6:32

Pocus counts as one.

Patrice Semicek 6:35

It's not. You can't list 10.

Andrew Kuhn 6:36

It is one. Yeah, it is not a. If it's a genre, I'll list 10 songs and I go hocus pocus, done the whole soundtrack.

Patrice Semicek 6:45

She's like, that's one soundtrack and in reality, I refined my argument, because if you can name 10 Halloween songs that are not associated to films, then I will give it to you, because there's holiday music in December. You could name way more than 10 songs that are not related to films. Therefore, it is a genre. I'm just saying.

Andrew Kuhn 7:06

Taxpayer dollars are at work. Wow, yeah, wow, I love it. You're welcome, pennsylvania.

Patrice Semicek 7:11

No and you're modeling inquiry-based learning right there, we are definitely, absolutely we're modeling Big time discourse.

Andrew Kuhn 7:18

We really lean into the discourse, discourse Leaning into it.

Patrice Semicek 7:21

Yeah, all right. Well, we're all introduced.

Andrew Kuhn 7:26

One of my big questions, as we're talking about inquiry is we hear this a lot is the battle between the amount of time or the perception of how much time it will take, and is this worth that much time? I'm going to lose all this time doing something else. What does that sacrifice look like? What have conversations that you've been part of? What are they like when they talk about the exchange of time and trying to shift to this model versus kind of a more traditional model?

Sean Gardner 7:53

Yeah, it's a great question because everyone's concerned about time and everyone looks at time and counts the minutes, and I think that long-term, short-term is a big piece of that that we can't get caught up in the day-to-day. A phrase everyone uses these days, we use a lot, is it's a marathon, not a sprint. We have our kids from K through 12th grade, so what does that journey look like over 13 years to get them to a place where we feel as though we're confident they have options when they leave our high school? To be able to have options, you have to be able to be flexible, dynamic, a critical thinker, all of these things that we say we value, but then, when we get into actual practice, I think it gets blurred a little bit.

Sean Gardner 8:33

The standards movement was fantastic to get everyone on the same page. Where it hurt everyone is it got at such a micro level that people just listed it as a checklist and went okay, I'm doing this on day one, I'm doing this on day two, as opposed to looking at the whole experience and saying, okay, what do we want our kids to walk away with at the end of this year and how do we cultivate that? Part of it, too, is this alignment between classroom teacher, instructional coach, principal, central office, to say yes, to give permission, because a lot of us are role followers in education and we want to do the right thing and a lot of times without knowing what the right thing is. We'll go back to that micro level, that short term, and we'll say, okay, I checked it off today, it was a fantastic day, without thinking what does my week look like, what does my unit look like, what does the year look like? And once you get that permission, all in that line, then you have freedom and you say how do I want to achieve this?

Sean Gardner 9:36

We always start with what does success look like? And I think a lot of us don't. A little bit of understanding by design. That was the intent of it really. If we had to boil down understanding by design down to one sentence, what does success look like at the end of the day? But again we get caught in these micro moves that just inhibit that success. So I think where we've had success in our district is really starting with that question what do we want our students to be able to do? And then let's work backwards from that and let's take it through an inquiry-based lens of just saying yes, like what is the most outrageous thing you think we can have our students do. Collaboration is a big part of our district. You've both been to our brand-new high school, which is fantastic. Every single decision that was done for that building came down to student collaboration.

Patrice Semicek 10:26

So that was the question, yeah.

Sean Gardner 10:30

And there were thousands of meetings I'm not kidding Thousands of meetings, and at every single meeting that was a point of conversation. How does this help with student collaboration? Because that was our goal. Because what does success look like? It looks like people being able to interact in an interpersonal way to achieve success and to work together and collaborate. But we need to cultivate that Right and we need to cultivate that in a way that gives students freedom, gives them permission to feel as though they're doing the work. And then we're and I love this from Steph Schwab, you shared it with me from your Office of Professional Learning. You know we're the meddler in the middle, you know what does that look like to then step in and out but really let the students own the learning. And that's kind of again, the heart of inquiry-based learning is the students doing the work, not the teachers.

Sean Gardner 11:19

We are the facilitators that work to put them in a position to be able to do it. But really what it starts with is what you said, andrew. Like we can't get caught up in the details. We need to think long term first. We need to get everyone on the same page communication wise, conversation wise and that goes across all of those levels. You know, if you think about it vertically, on the within the system the building to the school, to the central office but it also what we've had a lot of success with it also goes to the central office, but it also what we've had a lot of success with it also goes horizontal in central office. So our business administrator helps us make educational decisions on instruction. Our operations educational decisions on instruction. Human resources educational decisions on instruction.

Sean Gardner 12:02

I just had a conversation the other day with our director of operations who called me into his office and said hey, we're looking at something around sustainability. We're interviewing students to see what their view is on sustainability. How can we connect that to curriculum and instruction? In a lot of districts that just doesn't happen. I was walking by his office and he grabbed me. So I think that's another piece when you think about on the macro level, how do you support inquiry-based learning. Everybody's on the same page with it.

Patrice Semicek 12:30

It's impressive to see too, because we're in a lot of districts across the state now because of the skip to work, which is big. But it's interesting to see how the culture in your district feels. Like you walk into a building and your culture feels different and just you explaining how literally everybody has a role. How did you as a district get to a point where you became so crystal clear in your one purpose and two, in the way in which you guys are very much a team, like I've never seen or heard you do anything in isolation. You're always talking and having communication and reaching out. So how did you, as a team kind of get there?

Sean Gardner 13:13

Yeah, it's a great question. I think part of it is working together from day one.

Modeling Inquiry-Based Learning Culture

Sean Gardner 13:20

So myself and the director of humanities I'm the director of STEM education, the director of humanities, andrew Kuhn- what a great name, fantastic name Strength Just strength oh wow, from day one we've worked together, side by side, to the point where we visit buildings together, we have meetings together, that people joke that we're like brothers. So I think when you start from the top with that message, our director of human resources does car line on certain days. Our director of operations is out into the buildings. Our PBIS celebrations at elementary schools we rotate at one of our elementary schools. We rotate who hands out the certificates. One month it's human resources, next month operations, next month business. So you get people involved to see the work with students. Teachers start to see that and then that they see collaboration and then it just becomes part of what you do and everything you do it. Also, when you talk about inquiry-based learning and pausing, like how do we slow down learning, I think we try to model that as well. So we approach with curiosity. We ask a lot of questions before we make decisions. We're not reactive Our curriculum review cycle a year and a half to two years before we implement those curriculum updates and we're intentional about that because we want to do it right. So we start our professional development a year in advance and a lot of districts don't do that Right. So we'll at the latest start February of the previous year and then run all the way through the next year with PD and then implement the following year Because, again, long-term goal, that's what we want to do Now.

Sean Gardner 14:59

We've had an advantage as well. I think the culture cultivates. Consistency cultivates a want to stay. So we've had the same central office team in our C&I department for 10 years. Central office team in our CNI department for 10 years are building principals. Pretty much. Besides one of our newer principals who has experience, everyone else seven to about 20 years. So that consistency helps as well, because then it isn't the short term Like let me just make a bang for my buck in the next couple of years and then I'm moving on. I think everyone in our district is next couple of years and then I'm moving on. I think everyone in our district is hey, I love it here so much I don't want to go anywhere else, and then that consistency breeds a clear vision with it. But it gets back to what does success look like? I think that's where we started when we started this.

Andrew Kuhn 15:48

And to your point, the key for changing any system is that consistency, having the same people in play, and that you can actually meld together and get to that through that collaboration. Meld together a vision that is similar. One of the things I love to tell anybody who will listen to me when I'm talking about the high school is that this is a school that when these kids go to college they're going to say man, my high school was so much better.

Patrice Semicek 16:14

They really are. They really are, but it didn't happen by accident and I.

Andrew Kuhn 16:18

I knew that, just you can tell that just from seeing it. I mean, everything was, I would like to think, painstakingly, thought through and and that, hearing all the conversations that you had and the intentionality that that came to create what was created, you can almost see all of the all, even the inquiry part, all being modeled in this space. To me, this is kind of a example of what an inquiry based learning space would look like, Cause I very much get the impression that you know, this is somewhere that you want to be that you're you're.

Andrew Kuhn 16:53

You're welcomed in the space, but also somewhere where you like. I want to learn here. Like I'm excited. There's like there's there's not a space that you find in there where you're like well, this is, this is the cafeteria, right?

Andrew Kuhn 17:03

like even that is like this is part of, it's all integrated and was very well, well thought out. So I the thing that I'm taking away is that I think, from my perspective, that the you know, administration all the way through, all the systems are very inquiry based, but also modeling that. Yes, so, and and what's important is that, okay, that's going to look different at the administration level, then it's going to look at in the classroom level, but we're modeling from our systems, we're modeling how that works, and that's very much what we've tried to embrace too with all of our steals. Work is like well, what does that look like? So the expo is like how do we model that to have the three dimensions of learning and the?

Andrew Kuhn 17:40

different spaces and we can kind of involve everyone so that if you want to hear from a keynote speaker, that's there, that's an option. Or if you want to get hands-on and get inquiry based and learn about it, you can do that. So I appreciate hearing from you how your district has embraced that and how, through all of the different layers and there's a lot of layers you can break down to any spot that you're all kind of like everyone's trying to intentionally work together to, for learning and, as you said, for the what does success look like that if everybody's focused on that one thing that you're going to hit it.

Sean Gardner 18:13

Just the final thought on that, to kind of close the loop. When you talk about modeling, that is one of the most important things. So when you think about inquiry-based learning, the number one thing is we're letting the students do the work by asking questions, but we're facilitating those questions by modeling, asking questions ourselves, and that's the way we approach it. In everything we do Our principals, our central office. When we're interacting with teachers and they bring a problem or a concern or what about this, we start with asking them questions. Tell me more about this. What were you thinking with this? How can we support you? You know that's a different view we have as well, I think, than many districts. Our central office is about removing obstacles and putting people in position for success. It's not about mandating you need to do X, y and Z. It's a collaboration or a collaborative effort with teachers and principals of hey, anything is possible, like we're in control of that.

Sean Gardner 19:07

When you talk about Simon Sinek and starting with the Y and creating a safe space, like those are two very important things. How do you do that? You approach things with curiosity. You know it's pretty straightforward with it, stephen Covey the seek first to understand, then to be understood. You know, when you live that and you model that. That's what we want our students to be doing as well, and that's again the heart of inquiry-based learning. I think it just. You see it enough, you start doing it without realizing, and then it's pervasive throughout the culture.

Patrice Semicek 19:39

So you basically answered my question, because my question to you is going to be oftentimes in other spaces. When an administrator asks me questions, it feels accusatory and I have to defend myself. So that was like my question was going to be. When you're modeling and you're always doing it how have you seen and maybe it was there before you were there, but how have you seen the staff shift in their responses to you? Because if I'm coming in from a district where I'm used to getting a question and it feels like I'm not doing what I need to be doing, and because a lot of us are rule followers, we're always worried about being in trouble or not doing the right thing. So a question feels sometimes like wait a minute, I haven't done this enough. How have you seen your staff shift? And then I'm assuming that shift is going to translate down to the students, because as a student I would be like well, why is my teacher asking me this question too? So two-part question how has your staff shifted and how have the students changed?

Sean Gardner 20:36

Yeah. So with the staff, I think it's an ebb and flow and we're all human, so we all catch ourselves. So a little bit of Brene Brown vulnerability. And this happened to me this year, where I made a decision without approaching with curiosity, without getting into classrooms, and the staff and the teachers were comfortable enough to push back and say, hey, wait a second, this doesn't feel right to us, and then for me to say I apologize, Like I should have come into your classrooms first. Let's push that decision off six months to a year because we're not going anywhere. Like, and that's that infinite game. Hopefully we're not going anywhere. So we're, that's that infinite game. Hopefully we're not going anywhere. So we're going to be here for a while. I'm going to be here, You're going to be here, so let's push that decision off. Let me get into your classrooms and then let's have a conversation. I'll give you feedback. We'll talk about patterns. You know again that inquiry based learning. I'm not focusing on, or we're not focusing on, any individuals, although we'll give you individual feedback. At the end of this we'll talk about patterns that we see across all the classrooms. So that removes that you're doing something wrong.

Sean Gardner 21:38

The second one is interesting. We had a new hire who I had a conversation with around not doing a unit test and because of their pacing, you know, in certain classes and with we do so many formative assessments. Now we are fantastic at doing formative assessments. Any teacher on any given day can tell you exactly where every student is. We're still locked into a traditional test in a lot of subjects, for whatever reason we're locked in. So I asked her. I said what do you think about not giving the test? And she's new to the district and she said well, I'd ask you what you think about not giving the test right.

Patrice Semicek 22:11

So it's this power dynamic, and I think that's what you're talking about, Patrice, Like how do we break down that power dynamic?

Sean Gardner 22:16

So my response to her was right back Well, what do you think? Like you're the one doing the work. I'm here to support your work on it. Let's talk through. If you don't give the unit test, will you still have enough information to give a grade? If you do give the unit test, what does that do to your pacing, if you need that additional information, and how do we look forward to adjust our pacing with it?

Sean Gardner 22:39

But it's conversational, but it's fighting the urge to answer those questions is the biggest thing to model of just continue asking those questions to make it more of a conversation than the power dynamic of I'm telling you to do this now. At times there is a power dynamic. Yeah, you do have to say, hey, this is what we're doing, moving forward, but it's done through a way that I've gathered enough information, or we've gathered enough information that we feel confident. Everyone's on the same page with it.

Sean Gardner 23:09

At the heart of all of it, we. We want our students, we want our teachers, we want us people to feel valued and heard. And if you feel valued and heard, even if you disagree with the decision, you're still going to move forward with it and you're going to be a little bit more bought in. But that and again we get back to inquiry-based learning. Another piece of that is the students feeling valued and heard. They feel like they have a voice in this conversation, that they're learning Right as early as five years old, six years old. They can do it and we need to give them credit for doing that.

Andrew Kuhn 23:40

Charisse, I think our listeners are all on the same page. See what I did there.

Patrice Semicek 23:46

No, well, obviously you didn't listen to the podcast Page in terms of book.

Andrew Kuhn 23:49

Nope, you didn't listen to the podcast. Not a shocker that we want more Sean. That's what we're all on the same page about. We want to hear more Sean.

Patrice Semicek 23:56

On the same page.

Andrew Kuhn 23:57

He talked about being on the same page.

Patrice Semicek 23:59

Oh yeah, Do you?

Andrew Kuhn 24:00

listen or are you just nod at people when they talk?

Patrice Semicek 24:02

Usually, when it's you, it's a nod and smile.

Andrew Kuhn 24:05

Okay. Well, I'm going to say that was a good first interview and let's bring him back for round two.

Patrice Semicek 24:14

Or continue the conversation.

Andrew Kuhn 24:16

Or that I don't know.

Patrice Semicek 24:18

I'm pretty sure they were recorded at the same time.

Andrew Kuhn 24:21

Okay, great ending.

Patrice Semicek 24:25

Don't forget to you don't have the words.

Andrew Kuhn 24:29

No, but the way you're looking at it Like and follow or subscribe.

Patrice Semicek 24:32

You shook your head like you know the words, no, but the way you're looking at it, like and follow or subscribe.

Andrew Kuhn 24:36

You shook your head, like you know the words.

Patrice Semicek 24:38

What is that supposed to? Delete to follow? What Delete to follow? Don't forget. You said delete to follow, delete to follow. That is not true, sir.

Andrew Kuhn 24:43

Hit the delete button.

Patrice Semicek 24:45

Stop listening now. You're wasting your time.