ChangED
ChangED is an educator based podcast for Pennsylvania teachers to learn more about the PA STEELS Standards and science in general. It is hosted by Andrew Kuhn and Patrice Semicek.
ChangED
Nurturing Minds: Embracing Wonder in Science Education
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In part one of this two part series, we explore how Dr. Carla Zembal-Saul of Penn State is revolutionizing elementary science education through a strength-based approach that values teacher expertise. She champions linguistic equity and shares insights from her National Academies of Science report on creating more inclusive classrooms that celebrate English learners' cultural backgrounds and embrace diverse communication styles. She is ultimately working toward a more equitable educational environment that actively involves families and recognizes the unique assets every student brings to scientific learning.
About our guest:
I am the daughter of a Chemist and Elementary Teacher, so as a K-5 Science Teacher Educator, the apple did not fall from the tree. My research and practice, which I am passionate about, focus on supporting elementary educators and administrators to create meaningful, authentic, and sustained opportunities for every child to participate in science and engineering practices with wonder and joy. Most of my work takes place in the context of school-university-community partnerships alongside children, teachers, and families. I am a former middle school science teacher from Houston, TX, and I earned my B.S.Ed. and Ph.D. from University of Michigan.
Want to send us a show idea or just say hi? Email us at: thechangedpodcast@gmail.com!
welcome back to change ed, the most famousest podcast in penn state, just penn state.
Speaker 2Oh my gosh, we went from national to international to just penn state. Well, we're taking over universities, and penn state was the first step.
Speaker 1I I am your host, Andrew Kuhn, education consultant from Montgomery County Intermediate Unit. I'm here with me.
Speaker 2I'm Patrice Semicek. I also work at the Montgomery County Intermediate Unit as an educational consultant. Stop making me say it every time. We've had this conversation. Everyone knows what we do.
Speaker 1We have a super fantabulous show.
Speaker 2I think I would love to share a brain with this person.
Speaker 1Yes, and just so. Everyone has some context it's not andrew we everybody knows that we set aside a half hour for this, this episode, and we're now going an hour strong, sorry, and we've had all sorts of amazing conversations that were all separate and interconnected at the same time, yeah. So I would like to introduce Dr Carla Zimbal-Sol from Penn State. Welcome to the show. Would, you mind introducing yourself to the ChangeEd Nation.
Speaker 3Sure, thank you for having me. It actually is quite a privilege and I've been enjoyed our talk today and hope we can continue it. I'm a professor at Penn State. I'm a former middle school teacher, background in biology, and I am dedicated to making sure that young children have the right to investigate their world with joy and wonder and to have their ideas taken seriously, and so everything that I do revolves around that, whether it's curriculum work, professional learning with teachers, the research that I do, the practice that I engage in is all connected. So I'm really excited to talk to you about that today and looking forward to reconnecting and continuing to connect in the future. Hi ChangeEd Nation.
Speaker 1I feel like you're like talking to the Bachelor of the Nation, like hi, Bachelor, yeah, a little.
Speaker 2Can you tell us a little bit? I know we're getting ahead of our time. Do you do systems work?
Speaker 3I wouldn't characterize myself as someone who does systems research, but as someone who works in elementary science education. You have to loss in terms of their content, knowledge and science and their pedagogy and they just do activities or science falls off the end of the day. I think those are very damaging narratives and when you start to talk to people about tell me more you know about why you're thinking that way, it's very easy to say, like when they throw something out, well, why is it that they don't have? Why is it that their content knowledge is limited? Was that something that they could have fixed? Well, no, they went to a teacher preparation program and in that teacher preparation program they were probably prepared as generalists and so we're part of that system, that part of the system of preparation. You talk about teachers not having time at elementary grades. Well, who dictates how much time other things get? You know they don't.
Speaker 3It's not them saying you have very little flexibility in LA under the control of an elementary teacher to do what she knows is right for kids and is pulling in some of these pedagogical practices as well as the science and engineering practices and phenomena-based Even learning about that. When are you going to do that in your classroom? And so systems we have to think in terms of systems and how to change systems, and that's no cakewalk.
Speaker 1You know, one of the things that I found so fascinating in the work that we've been involved in is, as you peel back the layers, it appears to be a bigger, much larger systemic issue, not even limited to being local or yeah, it's a much larger issue. So when you said deficit model, it just rang in my mind of how shifting from a deficit model to a strength based model is a huge undertaking and a big shift, not even systematically, but culturally.
Speaker 2We don't even just focus on that's. Culturally, we're always, even as adults, we're finding the deficit.
Speaker 1I read a book that's called First Break All the Rules and it was actually based on business, but the thing, one thing that I mean there were many good things in there, but the one thing that stuck out to me the most was, instead of trying to take out what's left in for people, why don't you try to keep what is already in there? Enough has already been taken out from individuals and let's focus on their strengths instead of focusing on well, here are things that you can work on to improve who you are. There's already a skill set or things that are unique to you that make up who you are. Let's focus on that and make you the best at that for what you do, and there are now tools, aka AI, that could help you fill in those gaps and so you know, work on that human part of who you are. That really makes you great.
Speaker 3I actually recently served on a National Academies of Science, engineering and Medicine.
Speaker 3One of their consensus reports and it was around pre-K through five, science and engineering, and our subtitle for the book was drawing on the brilliance of young children and the strengths of teachers. Because the assets and I've written about this with another colleague the assets that elementary teachers bring are phenomenal, right and some of those practices lend themselves to supporting science learning. You have more contact with kids in developing relationships in those early grades, more contact with families and opportunities for family engagement. The things that some of the things that we do and ELA in elementary map beautifully to cross-cutting concepts and other literacy practices, the analyzing data and representing data maps beautifully to mathematics. So this is not a whole new ball of wax. Teachers just have to understand how it's different and to do that they really it's not going to be a one-shot professional learning experience because they have to sort of interrogate what those strengths are and how can they be used in this area. That really can excite, create interest, form identity of all students in my class as it relates to science.
Speaker 2So yeah, I love that. Is that published already?
Speaker 3Both are published already and I can send you. Are you allowed to share them we?
Speaker 2call this the beautiful book. Oh, look at that.
Speaker 3All of these are free and available. I'm not hawking wares. We don't get paid for this work. They pay us with the prestige of sitting on a National Academies Consensus Committee, and for that research report we actually wrote a companion piece for practitioners. It takes the research synthesis in the book and pulls it out and you could do a book study. But it has lots of examples from classrooms of what this stuff, what we're talking about.
Speaker 3How does phenomena and design challenges? How do they orient children towards investigation and design Like? What does that look like? Why is that so important? And examples of here's what it looks like when a teacher does this in a classroom. What about modeling to get your ideas out, those initial ideas out? Well, we're going to show you how models developed in this classroom over the course of an entire unit, and so, and then there are opportunities for teachers to try things in little steps using the framework of the book. So, yes, and then the piece that I wrote with my colleague is actually published in the Ambitious Science Teaching book. Yeah, Not the one that you're reading.
Speaker 2Two and two together. I was going to say, wait a minute.
Speaker 3You're reading there's the bottom, I have it right here, but it takes different perspectives and my colleague, heidi Carlone, who's really strong in elementary equity, engineering children. We, and graduate student at the time, michelle Brown we really thought it was important to get the word out there that just stop it with these deficit narratives. They're not doing anyone any good, they're actually damaging, and we need to figure out another way to harness these strengths. And so they're not well articulated in the research. If you're in any teacher's classroom for an extended period of time, you know what they are. So what I'm trying to do is craft a study right now that would allow us to look at particular kinds of practices that teachers use even cultivating a safe, caring community where kids can get their ideas on the table and feel like that's an okay thing to do.
Speaker 3We're going to help each other get better. It's not about right and wrong. Teachers know how to do some of those things, so just trying to put a little more data behind it. But, like I said, anybody who's been with kids, anybody who's been with teachers in school, knows these things from a practice point of view.
Speaker 1Right, you know I want to lean in on the systems aspect, but kind of on a different lens of this, and we have not talked about this at all but conversation that we, as in carla and us, have not talked about this at all but there's not recently had a conversation and it goes right back, right back.
Speaker 1Yeah, that's true, but it went right back to our systems conversation that we had earlier in the podcast of equality versus equity and that we are in an equality system, not an equity system. So it very much feels like an uphill battle to have the equity conversation and I'm bringing it up specifically because I know that that's a significant part of steals but not something that I feel like is extensively discussed and I'm wondering, from your perspective, right with this again, comparing equity versus equality, what does that look like in steals or why is that different and why is that significant?
Speaker 3I think it's why it could be different, right? So steals, at least at the elementary level, largely based on next generation science standards, which was largely based on wait for it a framework.
Speaker 2For the first time. We have all that.
Speaker 3Equity was explicitly included in the framework, so it's why you see this strand being pulled through. It doesn't mean that we're going to be able to achieve it, but I think moving towards it, as long as we're always moving towards equity and an equitable and just system and equitable and just learning opportunities, I'm not sure we even have equality in that kids get pulled out, english learners get pulled out to go do work in that intervention and they miss. Where do you pull out from? You pull out from the things that aren't as important or tested at every grade level.
Speaker 2Can we talk about how that statement in itself bothers me? I know it's not your statement because you did your air quotes but especially for ELLs and for students who have differences, the access to the background knowledge that comes when you do science and social studies is inevitably going to enhance their reading and their math scores. What I struggle with and maybe this is again everyone on the planet knows I grew up in Florida, so maybe it's just a Florida thing. When I was in my pre-service program at University of Central Florida, we were an infused EL program, so like I didn't walk out of any of my classes without knowing how to handle ELA for L's or math for L's, or like it was just part of the culture down there.
Linguistic Equity and Cultural Awareness
Speaker 2When I moved up here that wasn't the case, and a lot of times what ends up happening? Like you said, kids are being pulled from opportunities that are going to enhance them. Background knowledge wise, and the more we understand about background knowledge, the more we understand their comprehension scores are going to soar, and the more access they have to all these experiences, the more pathways they're creating in their brains, and so for me it's always been such a struggle to say I'm going to pull them from science and social studies, or even art and music that do the same thing in terms of creating pathways. Why do we do that?
Speaker 3That's the question, right. Why would we do that?
Speaker 2It makes me so mad.
Speaker 3Now there's, I'm drawing for that argument, I'm drawing on.
Speaker 3You need to be a cheerleader, yeah research and practice, also that synthesized in a different recent National Academies report that pulls together all the data that show that this is really a powerful approach for English learners for all learners, but English learners in particular because you don't have to be fluent in English to engage fully and participate fully in science investigations and the opportunity to engage with banana there's. You'll have equipment that you can point to and talk about. There's all kinds of gesturing that happens. Kids can read a graph right and might not be able to explain it in english, but they can understand ideas and in doing that you develop language right, there's another group that we automatically assume they're at a deficit because they don't speak our language.
Speaker 2And so, going back to your earlier thought about, we need to switch from a deficit mindset to a strengths-based mindset. Nine times out of 10, our English language learners have a lot of this content already from prior experiences and in other spaces, and we're making an assumption, because they can't say it in our language, that they don't have the understanding.
Speaker 3So I'm just going to put a period on what you said, because it makes me, yes, and that whole idea of our language it're, they're, they're it's about the ideas it's not about and they're they're able to express those. They have life experiences and funds of knowledge that allow them to make sense of new things that they encounter. But I find that in elementary I get that a lot in general, this idea that kids come to me without any background in the content I have to teach and it's like really have you checked on that? Because the whole blank slates.
Speaker 2But how do you know? How do you know what's telling you that? Yeah, data, do that.
Speaker 3And then just working alongside teachers to when a kid has a brilliant idea sorry is he's like no, no, I'm like.
Speaker 2You're not here.
Speaker 3It's me and carla now sorry, we got off on this, don't be sorry, this is my favorite, but I care about. This is the stuff that I'm passionate about, in case, you could do.
Speaker 1That's why I'm like I love carla I'm just here for coming for leave you. Let me know when to cue that.
Speaker 2I got it right, sorry, I got went on a tangent with you. I'm sorry, wait, well done, I'm not. What was your question?
Speaker 1no, I was gonna, I was gonna add to it and say that the other part that I think we overlook was so interesting with the gifted work that we're doing is that you know, there's this mindset again, this deficit mindset of, like you know, when we have twice exceptional students. But let's separate out those two things. So let's look at the deficit and which is we're not, I'm not calling it that, but that's the mindset let's fix it and we'll deal with giftedness later with this through a strength.
Speaker 1But, but again, that same mindset, but also for's, is this idea that you're also needing to figuring out how to assimilate into a new culture.
Speaker 1So, they're bringing their own culture, their own history, their own heritage and so the way that they were raised to. You know interact with people or respect adults and whatever capacity that might be. You know interaction. How do you eye contact all of it, where we're, we're we're taking you know our cues and projecting onto others what that means would really? The onus is on us to figure out what. Let me learn more about you and how you communicate, even non-verbally, so that I can be more effective and be a better advocate for you, to get you what you need I guess that in some way for me that goes to that equality.
Speaker 1Ok, we're going to move all over to this space. You know we're going to give you all the same thing and then we'll bring you back. Versus kind of that. To me, the other one's kind of more of an equitable approach where it's like let's learn about each other in whatever capacity, and then we're going to give you what you need, versus giving you what we think you should have.
Speaker 3Yeah, and assimilate is part of it. Right, like that whole idea is problematic when you pick it apart. It's like the focus now on multilingual education, making room for funds of knowledge when we're working with kids, are all ways to pull those assets forward and for everybody to be part of a community that is learning together and learning from one another and valuing one another's culture and language and so, and linguistic resources, the cultural resources, it's a very different way of thinking and I still go into districts from time to time that are English only, and if there was just a little room right to stretch that idea, we could be, we could be better supporting our all children in our classes.
Speaker 2I like the way you phrase that a little room to stretch the idea there's a little space because once you start, just once you pull up the thread.
Speaker 3It's gone right but you got to get the thread I moved a lot as a kid, and I was.
Speaker 1I was fortunate, though, that, you know, I I didn't have to also address a language barrier.
Speaker 1However, I kind of moved across inter no, not intra nationally you just moved to another state yeah, thanks for making it sound like it was no big deal, so, but the point is that there were still cultural differences, even within those states that I was encountering. So I guess from an advocate standpoint and I spoke the language but even then there was different dialect or different things that we valued or but you know, you say to me you've read the same book like four times because you're in four different schools yeah, I mean that's yes from an educational standpoint, like that would be one good reason to have standards if you have fluid individuals that there's some semblance of like in third grade we're doing this.
Speaker 1In fourth grade we're doing something like this, and not that we all have to be the same, but we're moving in a similar track or we can evaluate in similar ways. So, yeah, I moved, I moved and I actually read the same book I'm. It was a unique opportunity where you know, sixth grade, then I moved in seventh grade, then I moved to eighth grade all the different states and states and we read the same book. Well, they read the same book. I stopped reading it after a while.
Speaker 3Oh, don't worry, I was going to say it was probably different every time because of those cultural norms being different from state to state.
Speaker 2I don't know if sixth grade Andrew or seventh grade Andrew would you have been like. Oh, this is different because I'm in Ohio now.
Speaker 1Well, I stood up and said I'd like to talk to you all about equality versus equity, but first I want to start with the deficit model versus the thing.
Speaker 2I'm a seventh grader Wow.
Speaker 1Yeah, and my bow tie. And that's when they told me that.
Speaker 3Seventh grader had to be there to get to the person you are today, which?
Speaker 1is yeah, it was really the witness protection program, the witness perception program.
Speaker 2Oh of a podcast. Now more people have to listen to him talk.
Speaker 1Carla, I have made it. Thank you for putting it all together for me. Well, patrice, we're going to do something we don't usually do here at the Change your Day Center. What's that? We're going to hit the pause button. We're going to go boop boop and hit the pause button. This episode is TBC, which is to be continued. Tune back in for part two With Carla, with Carla Nailed it.