ChangED
ChangED is an educator based podcast for Pennsylvania teachers to learn more about the PA STEELS Standards and science in general. It is hosted by Andrew Kuhn, Tony Mirabito and Patrice Semicek.
ChangED
Authentic Leadership: Embracing Curiosity
Ever wondered how curiosity and vulnerability shape true leadership? Join us as we celebrate the transformative journey guided by Dr. Greg Koons, who has profoundly impacted our podcasting adventure. Dr. Koons underscores the irreplaceable value of curiosity, feedback and open communication, all while weaving in lessons on educational leadership through compelling stories and personal connections.
Want to learn more about ChangED? Check out our website at: learn.mciu.org/changed
and we're back to change it changed the number one rated, tied for number one podcast on all of pennsylvania. I am your host, andrew coon, education consultant for mont County Intermediate Unit. Here with me, tony.
Speaker 3:Marabito from CLIU 21, sdf. There it is, sdf.
Speaker 1:Patrice Semacek from the Montgomery County Intermediate Unit, and I still work there.
Speaker 3:And I think I'll take it from here Very, very proud, very excited to have our guest here, the leader, fearless leader and I guess we can even say godfather of podcast scene for this podcast, in particular, dr Greg Koons.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you so much for having me. I've been looking forward to this.
Speaker 4:We're excited to have you here. We owe a debt of gratitude to you because you took the time to share your podcast Love to hear more about that and share with our listeners. But also you encouraged us to get into the scene to just dive in and see where things could go, and you have so many useful tips that we I think we we've used all of them, and then we listen to you more and more about just important things, when you're a podcaster, that you need to be aware of, so it makes makes sense.
Speaker 4:So change that is, in no small part, thanks to your leadership.
Speaker 2:I really appreciate it and I'm humbled by those words. So thank you so much. Yeah, back when we started. Uh, it's lead on with greg and mark. It's now low gam. We're changing it to low gam. Less is more, less is more they say, and it's got, unfortunately, that the podcast cover has our faces, but they're sketched out it looks like I don't have any ears on it, but uh, we've, we've come a long way.
Speaker 2:We. We actually started season five, mark, dr, mark Hoffman and myself, and thank you, but we really we go back to when Andrew was talking about that. We are roots. Everything was so scripted, so scripted and it was like hi, welcome to lead on with Greg and Mark, you know at the very beginning. And now it's just a conversation and it's so much about telling your story. What we're finding out is that people want to know about you as people. You know this is about leadership, but they want to know about you as a person.
Speaker 1:I faced this similar thing. They, the boys men sorry men were doing the podcast, but I was like BBT.
Speaker 1:But I was like behind the scenes I was doing like editing and like whatever, trying to just be a part of it, because they really didn't want me to be a part of it. Here we go. But andrew was like the day they're recording, he's like you're gonna join us today and I was like no, I'm not. I need points and what are we talking about. And he's like just talk. I was like I can't do that you're a natural, by the way.
Speaker 2:thank, thank you, you're welcome.
Speaker 1:Thank you. That's why they didn't want me on, because I'm outshining them in every way.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's right, he raises the bar. It was Andrew.
Speaker 3:This is not working. It was never, tony.
Speaker 1:Tony was always like please be on this. I cannot do this without you, it's unbearable. Andrew's a lot, andrew's a lot. But I will say like one of the biggest things that we try to tell our our guests and we have a bajillion guests on is like it's really just a conversation and that's really it makes it so much easier when you start thinking of it that way.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely. I love this world of education and this all comes down to relationships, right? So you know. Even going back to our conversation, andrew, I know I listened to one of your podcasts prior and I said here's just some suggestions, just because I've been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. We have t-shirts now. By the way, we have swag low-gam swag if anybody's interested, but we went through these.
Speaker 1:We'll put your link in the notes.
Speaker 2:Oh, that would be fantastic. We could use more listeners, but, andrew, I thought that was really good. Open, honest feedback, which we talk about sometimes. People aren't always and this is a compliment to you, andrew people aren't always open to feedback, and I think that you need to be open to it before you can really receive it and change what you do and and improve what you do.
Speaker 4:Right, Thank you. That's the first compliment I've gotten on this podcast.
Speaker 3:And that's enough of those Okay.
Speaker 1:We'll move on. Already can't fit through the door, this Okay, we'll move on His head already can't fit through the door.
Speaker 4:This podcast is a long time coming right. We've all got different schedules. I think you were even at a different IU at one point when we started the conversation. Now you're solely hired to babysit. Tony, that's exactly what I do. See you, but please don't tell your mom to watch and listen to this episode.
Speaker 1:Oh man, she's still number one.
Speaker 4:Yeah, she's most downloaded.
Speaker 1:Maybe Greg's a bumper up Mama's boy.
Speaker 2:He must be a mama's boy, without a doubt. I'm a mama's boy as well, so I get it.
Speaker 1:I hope my boys are mama's boys.
Speaker 4:I only have one boy, three girls, one boy. So I Anyway. No one asked yeah Well, we were all sharing. It felt like a moment to share.
Speaker 2:And now yeah, you just ruined that moment. It's a five.
Speaker 4:Yeah, the five is gone.
Speaker 2:I love you girls, andrew Please be a dad to some girls.
Speaker 1:What about Nolan, poor boy?
Speaker 4:Yeah, he's the best. Anywho, when we started this conversation, we had a lot of conversations about agape and the love of teaching, and love to hear your insight, especially where you're working at administratively, just like your lens on that through your career. What?
Speaker 2:does that look like for you? So this all goes back to my family and my childhood. I had great, great mentors and my mom and my dad. Mom was a teacher of the deaf and hard of hearing and my dad was a social worker at a residence in White Haven it's White Haven Center where they had full-time residents there of adults with disabilities. So I learned a lot about that caring, compassion, advocating for the rights of people with disabilities and making the world a better place. They really set the stage for me. When I look at the love of teaching, I think about my parents.
Speaker 1:Big hearts.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Those jobs take big hearts.
Speaker 2:Yes, they do.
Speaker 1:Yes, they do, that's awesome.
Speaker 3:I think it naturally shines through in your leadership style too. There was a massive change when you started at the IU, at CLIU, and the care and compassion that you just mentioned, but also, I think, the effort that you put in in creating relationships and making sure that you met everybody when you came in, and just how you're never just in your perch, you make sure that you're on the ground floor in the schools, meeting people. Where did that come from? Because that everyone feels that across the IU21.
Speaker 2:I'm so happy to hear that, and a big thing is remembering your roots Right, and I know I remember those days as an itinerant special education teacher in the Hazleton school district, heights Terrace, elementary. I remember what it was like being a teacher those first days of teaching, when you know you're leaning on others and a lot of people helped me. So I don't want to lose sight of that. So that's why I'm always out and about learning what the pain points are with others. I do scheduled visits, like last year I went on van rides and things like that with transportation. That's where my passion is. I think too many times in leadership we get stuck. Like Tony said, you get stuck in your office dealing with some of the bureaucracy and all that.
Speaker 4:I'm interested in hearing from you. You were talking a lot about wanting to learn and learn more. How does curiosity play into that for you? Are you a very curious person? Do you just want to? You want to learn, you want to lean in, or is it something you've kind of conditioned yourself to?
Speaker 2:to be interested in things. So this also goes back to my childhood. So growing up it wasn't like it was now. We didn't have the electronics. We eventually had Nintendo. We were talking the other day about Atari and Intellivision. We had that Dad had. We were the only ones had Beta Betamax. I don't know if you remember Betamax Only two movies at the local video store.
Speaker 3:That we could rent.
Speaker 2:But what I found is I grew up in a big family, two brothers, two sisters, and we, you know, I was that youngest brother who was just running through screen doors and I was. My brothers would play doggy. That was their favorite game and they'd be tossing the baseball back and forth and I was running the bases. So when you talk about curiosity, a lot of it has to do with play Getting out there, trying something new, putting yourself in a vulnerable position and really learning new things Something that, tony, I'd love your perspective on this. So our opening day end service, we've been learning about AI.
Speaker 2:So a friend of mine helped me put together an AI theme song for our conference, because we're beyond all limits. So it's this cheesy, cheesy song. It's beyond all limits, and so we had this playing throughout the beginning when people were showing up in the lyrics and everything's up there. And then I'm like the group everybody needs to get out of their comfort zone. So I said I'm going to get out of my comfort zone today, but I encourage you to do that this year. So my secretary, jen who's wonderful was able to put together using there's an app for that. I was able to put a karaoke version of it's sweet Caroline, but it's C-L-I U. So Eric and Tony are there with the sound and we're at Parkland high school and it comes time for me to sing the song and I'm like I'm trusting on the music to be the background. Guess what happens? People, no music. Best laid plans, no music. So I look at the crowd and it's about 900 to a thousand people and I'm running the, I'm running the sound. So it's even worse.
Speaker 2:And so I said oh no, it's even worse for me.
Speaker 1:And so I said I'd have been so sick if I was Tony. I was.
Speaker 2:Tony last day. So, yeah, so he's lucky. I'm so forgiving. No, this actually worked out to my advantage and I wanted to talk to you about that. Like, a little bit of the feedback that I got was all positive. So what happened is I then announced to the group. I said we're going to do this Acapulco. I start off and how about all 900 to a thousand people singing?
Speaker 1:with me. I just got goosebumps.
Speaker 2:Yep, cool, yeah, and that's what it's about. Right, like they had my back. That's what leadership's about. You know, if you're, if you're leading, you want to be able to turn around and see there's 900 people there with you.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And they were, and they were, and that was just have happened if it wasn't for the full year that he put in building the relationships last year.
Speaker 4:And the intentionality. Yes, the other thing that I'm hearing resonating through our conversation is vulnerability. Yeah, that you're willing to be vulnerable and even admit I have shortcomings. I'm a human being.
Speaker 2:Yes, I've been stressing that to the team too. A good mentor of mine said it's really important to announce things publicly If you want to achieve something. We're launching a podcast. Right, andrew, you guys did this. Launching a podcast. It's going to happen. Even more importantly, if something goes wrong, you tell your team, you tell your staff. I'm sorry I screwed up on this one. It did not go the way we wanted and I have two examples that just happened. And I'm going to have to sit with my leadership team next week and say, look, this did not go as well as planned, because I'll say to the team like, look, team, I had all best intentions here, right, and I put myself out there. But there's times where you fall or times where you fail, and that's okay.
Speaker 4:Something that we've heard from our leadership team and I've really embraced it is the way you show up in the big things. Oh, I like that, and you're emulating that in the way that you're being consistent by being able to say, look, I actually know how to take ownership or I know how to apologize, because I've modeled that in other places in my life. You don't just show up and do it once and then you move forward. Other vulnerabilities, same thing. You're able to get on that stage and all right, here we go, let's see how. Who knows what's going to happen here, right, right. But I also feel like those are the teachable moments that you're leaning into, those teachable moments and and not having it scripted, like you talked about how you started there not having it being scripted, allows us to be genuine.
Speaker 2:It sure does, it sure does, and that's and that's where the beauty is right. I just keep thinking about you know, I keep going back to childhood on this. But something I really wanted to bring up is resourcefulness. Like people have asked me in the past, what's your, what's your strength? And I'm getting better at sharing strengths. You know it's. Everybody knows the interview skills. You have to talk yourself up with this. I feel very strong about my resourcefulness and it goes back to my days is, honestly, as the fourth of five kids scrounging for cereal because my oldest siblings would always get the good ones with the marshmallows and everything else. But it all goes back to that resourcefulness. Like me hiding the good cereal, you know but, just like how we've had fun.
Speaker 2:We just we had a ball and we would. We would make a game out of you know, something like just the pickup game in the neighborhood. But this translates to other things, and I just think about this too is I was going for my doctorate, and I'm not patting myself on the back with this, I'm just this was a personal goal for me. I never. If you saw me in high school, you would never think, oh, greg's going to go for his doctorate. But I sat in an interview, and have you ever been in a group interview? No, thankfully it was.
Speaker 2:It was a little bit terrifying, to be honest, because depending on what order they staggered the order. They'd ask one question. They were like it was a total of five questions. They'd ask a question and they'd start with you and they go right around and then you didn't want to be the last one to answer, right. So they got to the, the question what is your greatest strength? All right, I was the last one to answer, but what I live by, and what I think you guys see, is that I look at the strengths of others and what they bring to the table.
Speaker 2:So let's say, you know, I'm just trying to think back to the interview. The first person said I'm a great writer and I can, I'm really good at, you know, writing letters and everything else. The next one said I'm a great communicator. Then the next one said I'm a great team builder, I'm good at building up a team. And then I it got to me and I said I'm resourceful, I will. And then I talked, I pointed out each person, I listened to what they said and I said well, you know, andrew here is a great communicator, so he would be on my team and he could add to this, and I really feel that helped me in that interview. This was to get into the program, so I've really been living by that because so many people it doesn't matter what your position is get the right people to the table, amazing things can happen right.
Speaker 1:I love that. So this makes me wonder, because your podcast is about leadership and you are an executive director, so you're like the ultimate leader of your organization how do you help up and coming leaders get to the point where they can be vulnerable or open, or even teaching the resourcefulness? So what kinds of things are you guys talking about on your podcast, or how are you helping grow leaders within your organization?
Speaker 2:That is. That's a great question and it comes back to I had a again. The same mantra would say you know that we're talent scouts. We're out there all the time, we're always looking, we're always watching, we're always listening. So that would be one thing is that we're talent scouts. The other thing is that we need to be great mentors. So I could tell you right now I have two individuals who are going for their superintendent letters, who I'm working with and the best advice say to the people directly underneath you or even a few levels below, they're getting burned out.
Speaker 3:You can tell that they're having a rough day, whether it's on their face or it's showing in their work. What do you do in that kind of situation?
Speaker 2:And that's happened a lot lately. I've seen that with people and sometimes I used to wear my heart on my sleeve and I actually it might be a defense mechanism too. I think in leadership positions, as you go higher it gets lonelier, and Mark and I have talked about it on our podcast a lot. They're lonely positions, but you need your people to be their best when they show up. If they're not taking care of themselves, they're not going to be taking care of our kids and our students the way they need to. So the big thing is let them know it's okay to have a bad day. We are people first. We have family issues that come up. We have tragedies that come up in our lives.
Speaker 2:My last cabinet meeting I started by saying it's okay not to be okay. I started with that and a couple of people just nodded and I said, look, I just lost a good friend. Another exec was really tough to a battle with cancer. Look, it's tough, but you got to put that stuff out there. And again, vulnerability, you know putting it out there. So I didn't mean to bring us down on that, but yeah, I think that's so important and that's a great question, tony, I you know, just meeting people where they're at, respecting them for where they are and then building them back up. You know, that's really where I'm at.
Speaker 1:Young leaders or young, new to position. Leaders sometimes feel like they have to project that they're not human or they're no. I'll have all the answers. Or all of this Like I have to almost posture, which sounds terrible, but like I need to pick it till you make it. Or I need to act a certain way because now I'm in this leadership role. How do you help people like that?
Speaker 2:I love, love, love that question because it's the new leaders who should be asking the most questions and they don't, because they're like, if I'm asking questions, that means I don't know how to do my job. But how else are you going to find out, Right? I mean a lot of us you said fake it till you make it, and a lot of. How else are you going to learn, Right? Right, you know we learn our best, I think, when we fall on our faces. We really do, and so for young leaders out there, I would say take some calculated risks, put yourself out there. You know how else are you going to learn and ask questions. Get your your tribe, find out who your tribe is and lean on them. Yeah.
Speaker 1:That to me, is the biggest. Finding your people Like I'm going to talk a little bit about myself now so with the work that I'm doing in gifted, like I'm taking on more of a leadership role there and I don't think and andrew can tell me if I do this, but I don't think I, like posture, try to pretend like I don't, I don't have the answers and I don't, I don't feel like I say I do andrew oh man, the posturing that happens disgusting.
Speaker 4:She's just loys her power. No, you're not, you don't.
Speaker 1:No, but like it's kind of. It's kind of it's a daunting task, right, like I'm still a teacher, right According to my contract, but in reality, the roles that the three of us have, none of us are really. I mean, we're teachers, but we're. It's hard to tell the difference between us and administrator, if I'm being honest.
Speaker 2:Can you stop there for a second? Honest, can you stop there for a second Cause? I love that you said that I do, because we, everybody has leadership qualities and you can practice leadership and not be a leader, right? I mean, you don't have to be an administrator to be a leader, and we have so many teacher leaders. We have instructional aides who are leaders. We have van drivers who are leaders. I have learned more from our drivers that day last fall. I go on the van and they are teaching me about each of the students. So they'd say, okay, andrew, over here, just so you know, he's very sensitive to sounds, so if we have somebody honks their horn or something that might set them off and it just talked to me about all the triggers and all the unique needs of each of the kids that's a beautiful thing and that's something they taught me. So everybody has those leadership skills. So I think, regardless of your position, you bring a leadership. Everybody brings leadership in some way 1000% agree.
Speaker 1:Where I was going was like for the first time in a while, I mean, I have, I have people at work and, unfortunately, andrew's one of them.
Speaker 2:But I think she's a very patient, patient leader. I am, I am.
Speaker 1:But from what I'm finding working across intermediate units, yes. In the state has never been something that I have found to be easy.
Speaker 2:It is not. It is not.
Speaker 1:And then working with the state while working across intermediate units is doubly challenging. I'll say it that way. But to your point about finding your tribe, I feel like this group of I'll talk about it forever, but like this group of 12 people has been we've only been together two weeks has been life-changing, I think, for some of us because like the connection we've had within two weeks. So finding my tribe in this situation has been extremely helpful for me to feel like, ok, I can do some of this leadership stuff, but at the same time there are 11 other people that I can rely on. So I can't imagine being in your role as an executive director, especially if you've come from like a group of people to be elevated to that. I can't imagine the isolating feeling and it's kind of sad at the same time, I guess.
Speaker 2:So I do have some lonely lunches, and that takes me back to elementary school, when I got in trouble because I was a little bit of a class clown.
Speaker 4:I'm sure that's probably hard for you to believe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, exactly, so it's come full circle.
Speaker 2:And a lot of times I do have those lunches alone, lonely lunches, and but I'm reflecting the whole time and I'm thinking what did we do well today? You know, and it's amazing If you look at any given day all the things that went well. I try to talk to a lot of our staff about that too, especially when they're having a hard day. Going back to Tony's question is what went well today? I'm sorry, this one thing happened, what went well, and it's amazing how that one thing that didn't go well supersedes everything that happened. That was incredible.
Speaker 4:But, dr Kutz, I want to offer you something.
Speaker 1:Oh, this is super rare, yes, something very special to the Godfather today only is the second to last final thought for our podcast Every episode.
Speaker 2:What my final thought is to show up to work, ready to work, show up for success. That's great.
Speaker 4:And I also heard resourcefulness and ingenuity.
Speaker 2:Yes, you did.
Speaker 4:You know, even if you show up and you're not totally ready, you can find a way to be ready. This has been a special treat for us, so thank you my pleasure.
Speaker 2:I'm really excited to be ready. This has been a special treat for us.
Speaker 4:So thank you, yes, thank you, my pleasure, my pleasure. I'm really excited to be able to share this with the Change it Nation, and we want to say thank you to all our listeners, as always, for tuning in and supporting us. Literally, the reason that we keep going and we're doing what we're doing is because we're getting that feedback right. People are listening and sharing and talking about it, and I would say, as my final thought this is going back to a part of our conversation I'm sure you're aware of it, as a dark-haired fan of our podcast that you are that the Change Ed Nation voted me the talent, so you said you're a talent scout?
Speaker 2:No, they didn't. You found me. So I've heard a lot about you, andrew, and I've heard a lot about the podcast, but I've heard about this trio, this famous trio that makes up this change at dynamic. There are three of us, because the personalities, they're in harmony. This is true, you know, we talk about work-life balance. You guys are the trio of harmony.
Speaker 1:I don't know about that. You know. You talked about falling. With some crescendos that go up and down and some pretty big valleys.
Speaker 4:You know you said about sometimes you get a fall on your face. I felt like my joint just fell. Well, no, you can't say it was elected.
Speaker 1:You were not elected. You were like it was not a democracy. It was an appointment. Poor Tony, you deemed him the beard. Like you're the talent, I'm the brains and Tony's the beard.
Speaker 4:When Tony's like, we ran out of things like that was kind of rude.
Speaker 1:I got a growth like I got a good job you can never shave.
Speaker 4:You have to have your beard. Wow, so we'd love to have you back on the show sometime. I would love that.
Speaker 1:I thought you were going to say how you won the competition and everyone, everyone knows that's not true no, I think you should put it out for a vote.
Speaker 4:We we did, we already did, we did at PNC, at PNC last year.
Speaker 1:Tony wasn't even there a day.
Speaker 4:It's got to go bigger.
Speaker 1:Andrew still came in last.
Speaker 4:Yeah it was ugly it was ugly.
Speaker 1:It was amazing, I loved it.
Speaker 4:I wish the board was still in existence.
Speaker 1:Meanwhile we got to support your tribe. That's my leader.
Speaker 2:I'm supporting my tribe.
Speaker 1:That's my leader All the beards, oh man.
Speaker 4:All right.
Speaker 1:I think we captured it, thank you.
Speaker 4:Thank you.