ChangED
ChangED is an educator based podcast for Pennsylvania teachers to learn more about the PA STEELS Standards and science in general. It is hosted by Andrew Kuhn and Patrice Semicek.
ChangED
Reflective Practices in Modern Leadership
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Discover the essence of transformative leadership with Dr. Donna Gaffney, who shares her compelling journey from aspiring lawyer to passionate educator. You'll learn why leadership transcends formal titles, rooted in conviction, passion, and the ability to inspire others. Dr. Gaffney's insightful stories highlight the profound impact of mentors, and how her experiences have shaped her dynamic approach to leading the Office of Organizational and Professional Learning. Hear about the reciprocal nature of coaching relationships and find inspiration from new educators who dare to innovate and take risks.
Want to send us a show idea or just say hi? Email us at: thechangedpodcast@gmail.com!
Leadership and Personal Growth
Speaker 1Welcome back to Change Ed. Change Ed, everyone's favorite podcast. Did you know? Everyone is talking about us, not just a couple of people. Everybody, everyone, everywhere, is talking about this podcast because it is focused on changing education together, one podcast at a time. I'm your favorite host, andrew Kuhn, education consultant from Montgomery County Intermediate Unit, and here with me.
Speaker 2Patrice Semachek, an educational consultant from the Montgomery County Intermediate Unit. And here with me, patrice Semachek, an Educational Consultant from the Montgomery County Intermediate Unit. And I thought we weren't doing titles anymore.
Speaker 1Patrice, so nice to have you on the show. Ray of Sunshine here with us as well is Donna Frances Gaffney. Did I get right with the F? Was I off?
Speaker 3I think you was I off, I think you're off, I think you're off I think I'm off the show I think a lot of things are happening okay, three, two.
Speaker 1One here with us is our fearless leader very fearless, the leader of all that happens for us in the office of organizational and professional learning.
Speaker 2Sainthood for dealing with us and other people in our office yeah, we're a special group. We are special, for sure, for sure welcome to the show.
Speaker 1Wow there, this is why editing these so terrible. Could you hear it? It was like Welcome to the show. Oh, wow, this is why editing these is so terrible. Could?
Speaker 2you hear it?
Speaker 1It was like Stop, she's not even laughing.
Speaker 2It's like this is a shit show. Okay, and this is what we put out.
Speaker 1Welcome to the show, Dr Donna Gaffney. Glad to have you here.
Speaker 3Glad to be here, andrew. You Gaffney, glad to have you here.
Speaker 2Glad to be here, andrew, you pointed at her this is when you talk.
Speaker 1It's your turn to talk, Donna. We are talking today for this episode about something that's actually foreign to Patrice, but I am well-versed in this topic. We're going to talk about leadership. It's foreign to me, huh, so how? So please elaborate well it's donna's turn.
Speaker 2No, I think our, the nation, wants to hear what you have to say, sir we can edit parts of this out.
Speaker 1So, donna, I'm wondering if you could lead us off with some thoughts on leadership in general. What is what you know? What do we mean when we talk about that?
Speaker 2what is curious as to what makes a good leader like what. I want to restart all that, because that was a hot, hot mess. My question for you, donna, is when you think of leadership, who have been standout leaders that you have encountered that helped shape who you are as a leader other than me? Other than you, yeah yeah, or are there texts or books or people that you look to when you're thinking about?
Speaker 3I think the first thing to realize is that leadership is something that's in everybody and it isn't attached to position. So when I think of leaders that have really impacted and influenced me, they're not leaders in the sense that I reported to this person or this person was in charge of everything. To me, a leader is someone who is so in line with their convictions, their beliefs, their passions, their devotions, and then they're able to inspire others to see what they see in the work and to see what they view, what their perspective is on the world. So those are the kinds of people who, to me, are not just the noteworthyy, newsworthy leaders, but the everyday leaders, the people that bring others along towards a cause, towards a purpose, towards their why that's a really good answer.
Speaker 1The answer is dumped where do you go when you're looking for inspiration yourself, when you're like I'm trying, I want, you want to build yourself, or do you dive into? You have things that you read, things that you listen to, besides our podcast? I know that fills most of your time. Well, where do you go?
Speaker 3My inspiration at this point, you know 30'm approaching leadership as more of a coaching relationship, and coaching relationships to me, are very reciprocal in terms of not just helping another but also learning oneself. My inspiration comes as newer educators are delving into and exploring and implementing new things, taking chances, taking risks. Through my support of them doing that, I end up being inspired and I end up learning because it's opening me up to new possibilities, new ways of thinking, understanding that you know, in order for us to be relevant in the field of education, we need to be responsive to the changing world, and it really is about that change process. And change inspires me, period, no matter what the context is, because you're never going to have a change happen. A change be sustainable in the same way every time.
Speaker 2So can you tell us a little bit about your background? Because your background is pretty interesting to get you to where you are now, because I think your experiences have shaped the way in which you're leading our office, based off of what I know of you.
Speaker 3Well, I didn't always want to be an educator. As a young child, I wanted to be a lawyer.
Speaker 3Oh, I could see that child I wanted to be a lawyer. Oh, I could see that and I'm really not sure what that moment was. What clicked, what turned me around? It was probably the very few influential teachers that I had. Quite honestly, I was such a miserable student. I was a very successful student, but an unhappy student. I never felt like I belonged, so I ended up really not hardly attending high school and graduating early, but along the way there had been some really key teachers who really made me fall in love with learning. The reason I became a teacher, too, was because I wanted to change the experience for secondary students.
Speaker 3I mean elementary school was fine. Even up through middle school was okay, but once I got to high school, it all fell apart for me. So I wanted to be that person that made a difference Great undergraduate training from Immaculata, diverse experiences there and became a math teacher secondary math teacher, which, by the way, was not the goal.
Speaker 3The goal was to become an elementary school teacher and the chair of the math department after I took my intro intro course, said you've got 102 average. You need to be a math teacher, so you're like okay, yeah, yeah, there's not enough math teachers in the world. You need to be a math teacher.
Speaker 2It's the opposite of me. She was like you are going to be a math person.
Speaker 3I was like no elementary, elementary to secondary math, which was fine because you know, after I did a lot of my field experiences, I realized very quickly elementary school probably wouldn't have been for me. Makes a very special soul to do little ones Us elementary people say that about middle school people so great opportunities.
Speaker 3I've taught in urban-like settings. I've taught in suburban settings. I've taught in very small districts. I've taught in very large districts.
Speaker 3What was unique about my path was that every opportunity I had to grow into another position, it came to me, I wasn't seeking it.
Speaker 3It came to me, I wasn't seeking it. I just had the benefit of really great connections and relationships all throughout my career, such that when opportunity arose it was it was not from my desire to move on and lead, but from someone else seeing that in me and making that suggestion. So I was at the intermediate unit after 12 years of classroom teaching and it was shared with me that I really wasn't going to be able to advance without having some type of school district central office experience. And next thing, you know, colonial School District is knocking on the door saying we love what you're doing with the Math Coaching Academy, we love our interactions with you, with working on continuous improvement and PLCs and all these other things. Why don't you come and work with us? So I spent six years in central office in Colonial School District and I guess it developed a pretty good following and I got re-noticed by the IU and was asked to come back as director of the Office of Curriculum, instruction and Professional Development.
Speaker 2I was going to say CIPD, ipd.
Speaker 4Yeah, that's where she first met me and she was like oh, I love it to say CIPD, ipd, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2That's where she first met me and she was like oh, I love it here, it's amazing.
Speaker 1This is where I can see a lot of leadership.
Speaker 2I can see a lot of people that need to help.
Speaker 3Finished my doctorate my first three years here and the rest is history.
Speaker 2Your doctorate is in instructional coaching.
Speaker 3Ed leadership.
Speaker 2Ed leadership.
Speaker 3Doctorate in ed leadership.
Speaker 2Your dissertation was when was instructional coaching?
Speaker 3It was on coaching yeah, instructional coaching Best decision I ever made.
Speaker 2I think it definitely. It definitely shows up in the way that you motivate our office. You're definitely very much that kind of leader.
Speaker 1With all the work that you've done in studying and research and leadership. As you look back at your career, were there different styles that you were drawn to, not necessarily even as a leader yourself, but in the different organizations that you were a part of? I'm sure there's a lot that you could take away, that you learned from those experiences. But were you individually, did you feel drawn to a certain style, and is that the style that you use now, or is it just something that you kind of developed over time?
Speaker 3I would say it is an assimilation of different gifts I've received from all of the different leaders that I've had, each one of them. I could probably go back now and say this mantra, this message, this foundational way of leading resonated with me and then became part of my. I almost feel as though it's like your leadership style is a portfolio and it's made up of acquisitions that you've made along the way, and some, some you're more highly invested in, right and some you're less invested in, but cumulatively, comprehensively, it makes for a really strong portfolio.
Developing Reflective Leadership Skills
Speaker 2That's awesome. I like that. I like that Because when we're thinking about like teaching and coaching and leadership and all of that, I think that if you don't take the time to synthesize what's coming in from all directions and then make it your own, I think that's the biggest piece, that I think some new leaders or new teachers try to emulate someone else and don't make it their own, and that's where you can kind of see some of the falling apart or the missteps or the cracks or whatever. So, synthesizing it and then making it part of who you are and leaning into what you know your strengths are, that's the other thing that I think that you have made a very clear effort in our office to say here, we know what your strengths are are, but there are some areas in which, well, there's a specific area in which I think you could grow, and not in like a negative way. It's a you're working really hard here. Let's move you forward in that area.
Speaker 2So I think that one of the nice and different ways of our office is that you have been very strategic in placing us with supervisors who will push us in different ways while also honor where we're at in terms of like, just honoring where we're at. I think that's really helpful in allowing us to hone who we are, so that everyone in our office can be a leader because our roles. It's very hard to distinguish between what we do versus what the admin do in terms of districts. A lot of districts are like I don't even know who's an admin, who's not an admin, because we all do very similar things and so it's it's. It's nice in the way in which we as an office have grown together in our leadership styles while still honoring where everyone is.
Speaker 3I don't think that's common everywhere afraid I really feel that the the evolution of a professional is really, is really unique. I can't imagine if you, if you still have the same supervisor that you had. You came into the office 11 years ago. You're not the same person you were. You're not the same leader. You were 11 years ago.
Speaker 3So we do have that ability and we've taken advantage of that ability to ensure that each of you, in your development process as a professional and a leader, gets what you need when you need it, and by exposing you to a lot of different leadership strengths and leadership styles. I believe that's how, then, you ultimately find your own way of being you as a leader and a professional, and it's probably, it's probably because you're right, you teach the way you learned right. So you know, having this conversation now, I'm now seeing the connection that, because that's how I acquired my leadership persona right then. Now that's what I'm trying to make sure that you guys get to do too a very important question in your location.
Speaker 1Do you have a window open? I do I hear a bird. Do you hear the bird?
Speaker 4I hear a bird chirping is something you do in the podcast, but I'm listening to you and I'm like no, don't, I can't or is it giving a kind of nirvana, kind of it's nice, it's?
Speaker 2tranquil, okay, he's.
Speaker 1His ad is on fire today it is a loud one, I can shut the window don't shut the window, don't shut the window you know, one of the connections I'm making here listening to you talk is that in the education biz we talk a lot about lifelong learners, cultivating them, cultivating lifelong learners, and that really on a journey just journey of life, we are learning the entire way. Even if we don't acknowledge that we're learning, we're still learning.
Speaker 2If we're doing it right. You think everyone learns.
Speaker 1I think you learn you think everyone's intentional about learning, I guess, is my question. No, no, no, not that we're intentional, that life, life is happening yeah learning is happening intentionally or unintentionally. It's not helping my point, sorry, but I feel like leadership and learning could be in that, you know, like a lifelong learning and lifelong leadership can go together that they they can be interchanged. Those two terms and I think a lot of it hearing you talk comes down to intentionality but, also, what I was hearing you also say is knowing who you are.
Speaker 1You have to know who you are to be able to empower others to lead. Otherwise, it can still be about you when really depending on your style, that's not what the leadership is about. It's about uplifting other people.
Speaker 4That's a good point.
Speaker 3Is there a question in that or no? No, not real.
Speaker 1Sometimes we just make statements. Thoughts with Andrew, Okay. Thoughts with Andrew okay.
Speaker 3Thoughts with.
Speaker 1Andrew no charge here's.
Speaker 3Here's what I will say about that. An individual has to want to learn, and learning information is not necessarily the same as learning about life. So I'll be really honest with you, and some of the moments that I have learned the most from are the moments in which I've screwed up so bad I can't lay my head on the pillow at night.
Speaker 2Same.
Speaker 3What I do believe is essential to that learning learning for change of self. Right Learning is reflection.
Speaker 4Yep.
Speaker 3Having information, churning information in and out, you know, going through the motions of things that's not really true. Learning, living, applying, experiencing and then reflecting to me is really truly where any type of change in mindset or practice comes from Totally agree.
Speaker 2I think some of the best leaders are reflective practitioners and can help people. Some people are natural reflectors and some people aren't, and a natural leader who is a really good reflector can help others get there.
Speaker 1Yeah, I agree this is a conversation we've had a lot offline about reflection itself. It doesn't appear that everyone has the same reflective abilities.
Speaker 2I mean, let's just look at me and Andrew. I'm highly reflective, Andrew opaque.
Speaker 1Case in point, she thinks she's reflective, so obviously there's not a reflection there. So how do you think we, from your perspective, from your experience, how do we develop those reflective skills? Is it something that happens to you and then you just kind of sit through it? Is there a mentor that works with you on that? How do we develop those as people?
Speaker 3I think you too should answer that oh deflecting what I love you've been. You've been sitting here saying that you feel as though, in terms of leadership, oh no, we're gonna have to demonstrate, right. Resonates right. So how have, how have I developed reflective practice in you?
Speaker 2The ASMR of you rubbing your beard with your thing is like too much.
Speaker 1I think mainly Donna, with you screaming at us all the time and throwing things at us in the office is how I've reflected to just avoid you at all costs. Good thing this is on zoom.
Speaker 2I'm safe to say that or there would be objects thrown. All right to answer your question. You. You ask very open-ended questions and your response is normally none of us are perfect, so nine times out of ten your response is usually a very calm, genuine response of let's take a pause and let's talk this through, or let's. Or ask a question to get us to think differently, or asking about how we can see from different perspectives, or always presuming positivity that's this year's theme for patrice to presume positivity. So that's from. For me, when you've been working with me, is the the asking the questions and saying let's take a minute, let's see if we can not only see it from different perspectives, but let's see if we can navigate our way through and out of whatever situation we're in. Andrew, does she work with you at all?
Speaker 1You know, besides the screaming, yelling and throwing, I think you allow for just kidding. You don't do that. Actually very impressed with your ability to stay calm in situations where calmness might not always prevail, so I think that's a good. Modeling is, I think, where I'm going. The word that I'm looking for is modeling that I think reflection is a practice that you have to work on, but you also need a good model, or multiple models, to get you there.
Speaker 1It makes me think of going to the gym. A lot of times. You'll have a personal trainer who can help you work through and you learn how to do different exercises to build up muscles, but then you might not need to continue on with a personal trainer, or maybe you just need to check in every now and then. Am I doing this exercise correctly? Because it doesn't always feel good, it's hurting my muscles when I do something this way, and I think that reflection can work in a very similar manner to where it becomes second nature. And that would lead me to. The other gift that you provide for us is time in that space, and I think that time can work more or less efficiently depending on the individual and their ability to work through that reflection and I think we can land in so many different spots when we reflect, many different spots when we reflect. So reflecting but then also having conversations about that reflection, I think allows that to solidify as well. So I think as a practice you try to intentionally create that space for the reflection itself, for the conversations and for dodging knives see, I knew you would answer the question better than I possibly could oh she said after mine, not yours, just so we can reflect on that I am
Speaker 3everyone's favorite people who truly believe that the greatest gift you can give anyone is your time. Always live by that. So it really doesn't matter the time of day, the day of week, you know what's going on, what's not going on. I, absolutely, I will always sacrifice to give someone else time yeah, you do.
Speaker 2You, you'll, yes, you'll, stop what you're doing to listen to us.
Speaker 3You really nailed it. I mean, I guess it's the kind of learner I am, the psychology of learning and the pedagogy of learning that I believe in. I model curiosity right, like just I'm curious, help me know more, help me understand more, help me have a better handle on your perspective here and your thoughts. I really am usually more interested in what other people think about something than what I think about it. I kind of let my thoughts fall into place after the assimilation of other people's thoughts. So I guess it's just it's my learning style and therefore but it really does it comes down to inquiry and curiosity. I really believe that that's the way to move everybody, everything yeah cool, we're out of time we are out of time.
Speaker 1Donald, thank you for coming on the show and for reflecting on leadership with us. We appreciate that. See what I did there.
Speaker 2I see what you did there you get a cookie, good job.
Speaker 1We'd like to extend to you because we still have a little bit of time left a special treat.
Speaker 2This is like a cookie.
Speaker 1Everyone. That's not nice. We'd like to give you the second to last final thought.
Speaker 2Because I want you to pick. Who do you think is going to have the final thought?
Speaker 3I pretty much can guarantee who's going to get not just the last thought, but the last word. But go ahead.
Speaker 1Okay, obviously, you're a huge fan of the show. Thank you for all the listens. That's why we that's why we hit 10,000 views in our first month she just listens to us all the time yeah poor Donna.
Speaker 2Second to last, final thought, because someone has to have the last thought oh, you just want me to come up with a thought.
Speaker 3Not even a prompt, not even a spark. I just have to give a thought.
Speaker 1I was giving you think time.
Speaker 2Wrap it up Like if you have one thing you want to impart.
Speaker 1Something to suck out to you.
Speaker 2Something that you think is like do you have a mantra? Like what do you?
Speaker 3Here's what I'll say.
Speaker 4Here's what I'll say I personally spend a lot of time thinking about the state and the future of education.
Speaker 3There are many challenges, there are many barriers, but there scale in some way no matter how big, no, how small change education, and if everyone in the field can really truly feel that and believe that and live that, then the possibilities and the scaling of all these great things are endless.
Speaker 2Top that.
Speaker 1And in a not unusual move, patrice will give us the final thought. Oh no, mm-mm, mm-mm. And in a not unusual move, patrice will give us the final thought oh no, you're only doing that because it's donald and he already has it.
Speaker 3I don't know why he even pretended no, he right, he.
Speaker 2I mean, listen, he's a very diligent podcast host because he has to be the host. No one else can be the host. He has co-hosts that join him. But he is very diligent, he takes his role very seriously. He has lots of notes about what he wrote about you. So I'm curious, sir, what's on the notepad?
Speaker 1Donna, we covered a lot today. We talked about leadership, we talked about reflection. We dove into each the things that stuck out to me. Okay, the lights are on. Thank you for the update there, alexa that's really weird.
Speaker 2I've never had that happen before. My phone just told me the lights are on. Sorry about that three, two, one.
Speaker 1donald, we talked about a lot today.
Embracing Leadership and Reflection Journey
Speaker 1We covered leadership, we talked about reflection, diving into each. Some of the things that really stuck out to me that you shared about leadership is that your leadership style is a portfolio, which I thought was a really fascinating point that you brought up, and really true for us as educators, which you could argue. All of us as educators are leaders in our space and we are impacting each other, but even our educational style and our preference is really a portfolio for who we are and how we feel about and what we think about for education. But the one thing that, again, I really like that you said was the assimilation of gifts over time, and that goes back to that idea of being a lifelong learner or being a lifelong leader and even how, in this podcast, you kind of flipped it on us and we were trying to get you to talk about reflection and even with your style, you're like well, why don't you tell me about it? So you, you became the co-host on the show, your guest and a co-host two shots in one every time.
Speaker 1She does it every time every time, so thank you for for coming on and and being with us on this show and for your support for what we do, for the, the podcast, and we are a reflection of your leadership and your your reflect oh see how I use the word reflection double reflection deep. So thank you very much. We want to remind everyone that leadership is inside every single one of us and it is our job to assimilate the gifts over time and bring it all together. And don't forget to reflect and subscribe and subscribe.
Speaker 1And donna, thank you as well for the signing bonus for our new contract with the podcast. We appreciate all that you've done.
Speaker 2What is it? Ten times of zero. So that's zero. There's some math for you my pleasure.
Speaker 3Thank you for the royalties I'll be getting. I appreciate it. Cut Again, cut.
Speaker 2Again, percentage of zero. Cut, here we go.